OK, I have some thoughts about the debate going on about whether women (straight or otherwise) writing m/m slash is good/bad/appropriating minority culture/etc
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Re: my comment, at long last (pt 2)lovessongJanuary 22 2010, 15:22:04 UTC
Yeah, the structures for telling the story of f/f desire are much less available to us culturally, for sure.
You know, I came into fandom through Buffy and Xena myself -- Xena was my first fandom. And I only came to m/m slash as a fan (as opposed to a curious reader of my friends' weird stories) through het -- I was reading Buffy/Spike, and then found that my favorite Buffy/Spike author (Anna S.) also wrote Spike/Xander . . . And from there, I pretty much never looked back.
But it seems there's not a big overlap between m/m slash writers and f/f ones -- and particularly, there's not an overlap between Xena fandom and the rest of fandom. Even the terms to describe kinds of stories are different. (Anyone remember "alt" and "uber"?) Of course, this could be partly my own interests leading me to see what I'm looking for. I'm not going out in search of f/f stories. Even in BTVS fandom, the big lesbian pairing -- Willow/Tara -- was completely uninteresting to me in the fanfiction, although I loved them as a couple on the show.
It's funny, I don't have a lot to respond to about the dearth of good women characters on TV. I don't doubt that it's true, but again, mainly I know about what's on TV *through* fandom. If people aren't writing slash about a show, I don't know about that show. I think this gives me a kind of skewed view of pop culture, for better or worse.
. . . Speaking of pop culture and f/f slash . . .
I've been watching the American Idol audition episodes on youtube, and Kristin Chenoweth was the most recent guest judge. She and the other female judge, Kara, seemed to have a lot of fun, and the packaging of the episode sold them as instant BFFs. That would be a fun slash pairing, although I guess there's not a lot of traction for it, since she was only on for half of one episode. ( . . . I wonder if there will be Ellen/Kara slash when the season starts in earnest with Ellen as the new judge. I don't know what I think of that . . .)
Re: my comment, at long last (pt 2)songquakeJanuary 22 2010, 15:53:07 UTC
Even in BTVS fandom, the big lesbian pairing -- Willow/Tara -- was completely uninteresting to me in the fanfiction, although I loved them as a couple on the show.
oh, totally. you know me -- all about transgressive sex? canon pairings usually don't do it for me At All.
however, faith/any female character? HOT. hell, anything with faith is hot, period. (had a crush on her, though not so much on eliza dushku herself.)
hm. i should go see what the firefly fandom is doing in terms of femslash. because there are some definite possibilities there.
and i dunno about AI. i don't think i could cope with RPS involving kristin chenoweth -- her speaking voice annoys me too damn much.
but it makes me think of the general argument against censoring porn: the proper response to porn that degrades women is not getting rid of porn, but writing better porn. and i suppose that this is another example. i know a couple of fen who have basically left fandom to write original fiction, and i can only hope that they are writing strong women characters. being pretty strong women themselves. and maybe they can provide new source material for us to slash.
*nods* re: lack of overlap btn Xena and the rest of fandom, though i would contest the generalization that there's not much overlap of m/m and f/f writers in fandom, generally. but that may just be in HP: i find that most of the writers who do femslash also do manslash, though not vice-versa. (i, actually, go out looking for plot and kinky sex, which often leads me to pansy/hermione, etc.)
okay. off to do other things than play on the eljay.
Re: my comment, at long last (pt 2)lovessongJanuary 22 2010, 19:50:59 UTC
Faith/anyone is pretty much hot. Except for Spike, IMO. Something about too much little-black-dressness in one pairing. I've been liking Eliza in Dollhouse . . . There's definitely some slash potential there -- mainly with her and the semi-evil manager of the Dollhouse.
And yes, I also thought of the porn argument -- although, the truth is, I think bad (video) porn is more potentially damaging than bad slash, because of two factors. First, it involves real people's bodies (porn actors). Second, it's an industry. While part of me agrees with you that it's a shame really talented slash writers can't get paid for their work, I think there are some significant benefits to the fanfiction community in keeping cash and profit out of the equation.
On f/f and m/m overlap -- yeah, HP sees a lot more of that than most fandoms. Buffy had some overlap, too, although there was also that whole segmented fluffy Willow/Tara thing going on that was a separate thing. But it's always seemed to me that the f/f in both Buffy and HP is less substantive. By that I mean not that it's not well-written, but that the stories are shorter, and there are less stories altogether. So you have less fanon, less of a community around the pairing, etc., etc. F/f pairings seem to function like rare pairings -- loved by a very few, and written occasionally as a lark by everyone else, if they get written at all.
Again, this impression may be influence by where I hang out, the recs sites and archives I visit, etc.
You know, I came into fandom through Buffy and Xena myself -- Xena was my first fandom. And I only came to m/m slash as a fan (as opposed to a curious reader of my friends' weird stories) through het -- I was reading Buffy/Spike, and then found that my favorite Buffy/Spike author (Anna S.) also wrote Spike/Xander . . . And from there, I pretty much never looked back.
But it seems there's not a big overlap between m/m slash writers and f/f ones -- and particularly, there's not an overlap between Xena fandom and the rest of fandom. Even the terms to describe kinds of stories are different. (Anyone remember "alt" and "uber"?) Of course, this could be partly my own interests leading me to see what I'm looking for. I'm not going out in search of f/f stories. Even in BTVS fandom, the big lesbian pairing -- Willow/Tara -- was completely uninteresting to me in the fanfiction, although I loved them as a couple on the show.
It's funny, I don't have a lot to respond to about the dearth of good women characters on TV. I don't doubt that it's true, but again, mainly I know about what's on TV *through* fandom. If people aren't writing slash about a show, I don't know about that show. I think this gives me a kind of skewed view of pop culture, for better or worse.
. . . Speaking of pop culture and f/f slash . . .
I've been watching the American Idol audition episodes on youtube, and Kristin Chenoweth was the most recent guest judge. She and the other female judge, Kara, seemed to have a lot of fun, and the packaging of the episode sold them as instant BFFs. That would be a fun slash pairing, although I guess there's not a lot of traction for it, since she was only on for half of one episode. ( . . . I wonder if there will be Ellen/Kara slash when the season starts in earnest with Ellen as the new judge. I don't know what I think of that . . .)
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oh, totally. you know me -- all about transgressive sex? canon pairings usually don't do it for me At All.
however, faith/any female character? HOT. hell, anything with faith is hot, period. (had a crush on her, though not so much on eliza dushku herself.)
hm. i should go see what the firefly fandom is doing in terms of femslash. because there are some definite possibilities there.
and i dunno about AI. i don't think i could cope with RPS involving kristin chenoweth -- her speaking voice annoys me too damn much.
but it makes me think of the general argument against censoring porn: the proper response to porn that degrades women is not getting rid of porn, but writing better porn. and i suppose that this is another example. i know a couple of fen who have basically left fandom to write original fiction, and i can only hope that they are writing strong women characters. being pretty strong women themselves. and maybe they can provide new source material for us to slash.
*nods* re: lack of overlap btn Xena and the rest of fandom, though i would contest the generalization that there's not much overlap of m/m and f/f writers in fandom, generally. but that may just be in HP: i find that most of the writers who do femslash also do manslash, though not vice-versa. (i, actually, go out looking for plot and kinky sex, which often leads me to pansy/hermione, etc.)
okay. off to do other things than play on the eljay.
Reply
And yes, I also thought of the porn argument -- although, the truth is, I think bad (video) porn is more potentially damaging than bad slash, because of two factors. First, it involves real people's bodies (porn actors). Second, it's an industry. While part of me agrees with you that it's a shame really talented slash writers can't get paid for their work, I think there are some significant benefits to the fanfiction community in keeping cash and profit out of the equation.
On f/f and m/m overlap -- yeah, HP sees a lot more of that than most fandoms. Buffy had some overlap, too, although there was also that whole segmented fluffy Willow/Tara thing going on that was a separate thing. But it's always seemed to me that the f/f in both Buffy and HP is less substantive. By that I mean not that it's not well-written, but that the stories are shorter, and there are less stories altogether. So you have less fanon, less of a community around the pairing, etc., etc. F/f pairings seem to function like rare pairings -- loved by a very few, and written occasionally as a lark by everyone else, if they get written at all.
Again, this impression may be influence by where I hang out, the recs sites and archives I visit, etc.
Reply
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