How can anyone sey what love is? What trust is or what pain is? My pain is not your pain. My joy is not your joy. These words don't mean anything. They're vauge expressions at the very best. Words always fail
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from Claire
anonymous
February 17 2005, 12:27:27 UTC
Claire to Bethany and Nick, greetings. I'm thankful for you both. I'm thankful for your deep questions and deep thoughts. I'm thankful for your willingness to let others see you having such important conversations. I'm thankful for you both. Wow, you two have hit some major things. Majorly major. And it's wonderful to ask such things and to discuss such things while our hearts are free to discover and learn and grow and change and etc... Now, let's see here, I only have so much time, so I'll try to adress what I can from my heart. How can you tell if someone is real? That I'd say is a big question here. Well, there are a few ways to approach this:
1. No one can know if they or anyone else is true 2. You can trust that there is the possiblity for truth in each person
I choose the latter and at the same time, I acknowledge the need to think about the first.
If we take the first option, life becomes about duty. Duty to one's self, duty to family, duty to friends, duty to the law, duty to humanity in general. This, although it raises a valid point, must be emptied of experience to undrstand. Duty must come from knowledge gained without experience. It comes from something greater beyond human experience. It is as it is and it is black and white. There is no room to learn from life. The problem that I see is that it doesn't allow for common goodwill. If one only treats another well because they ought to, well, that bothers me because that is not how I want to live & that is not how I want to be treated. You can treat me as well as you want because you ought to, but if you don't want to do what you ought to do because of something deeper, then, I'm sorry, you've lost something grand. (to be continued)
from Claire again
anonymous
February 17 2005, 12:33:37 UTC
I guess duty just gets to me because it seems so empty. At the same time, I do believe that I have duties and that they are important, but doing them is a joy and not a chore & so I guess at that point, they're not the empty duties.
Ok, well, the other way to live, let's see, I'd be called blind to the world, optimistic, stupid, idealistic, whatever...I'm happy to be that way. I belive that there is a possiblity for truth in each person. I can't help it...there has to be. Not everyone is consitently truthful, but at somepoint they are real. That's just a fact that if I didn't believe I don't think I'd be able to love.
anyway, I know you both are well read and would love to read more. 2 authors I highly reccommend: Kant and J.S. Mill. And you can't read one without reading the other. They argue and agree and argue and agree & it's pretty cool to think about how people should live with them & what it means to be an individual and free. Whatev. If you ever find time. (to be continued)
Re: from Claire
anonymous
February 17 2005, 12:44:36 UTC
As far as knowing what joy and love and pain and all that jazz is. I agree with Nick to a great degree. Yes, I cannot know your specific pain, but I can know what it means to be in pain. As far as joy and love go, that's where it gets interesting. Joy. It seems sometimes that there are no words to describe it. Last night, I was utterly wordless and very very happy. I tried to explain it to someone and the mere fact that I was wordless was enough. Another friend tried to ask me why I was so happy...there wasn't a why. Joy just is. How each person expresses joy is different, but joy can be defined, but I don't think I can define it yet. Happiness is not joy. Happiness comes from stuff and you can voice it much more clearly, but joy comes from only one source. I'm not gonna say more on joy, because you both know what I believe the source of joy is. Let's just say, joy is being thankful for fleas eating at you. (The Hiding Place ~Corrie TenBoom) Love. Funny you should ask. Funny you should comment. My mom and I just had a conversation about love last night. I asked my mom how she knew she was in love with my dad. In summary: 1. It wasn't about her for her & it wasn't about him for him. Selflessness. 2. Trust. Almost like faith. Being able to talk about all things...big & small. Everything from music to hair styles to premarital sex to God to politics to bubbles to drugs to war to frogs and midnight to....etc... AND, with that, knowing that no matter what, no matter your past, your future, your now, the other person will never stop loving you. 3. But most of all, mom made it clear that she fell in love with Dad because they had the same faith. And that faith was the bond that made the selflessness and the trust possible. (to be continued)
Re: from Claire
anonymous
February 17 2005, 12:51:32 UTC
Now that's just one part of love, but I think it applies to the other kinds as well. how? Let's see. 1. Selflessness 2. Trust 3. Faith I happen to belive that's the definition of reciprocated love. notice, I say reciprocated. Not all love is. Not all people are capable (currently) to reciprocate love. And like NIck says, the more you show love, the more others want to show it. It's not about proof. It's about showing it because you want to. Well...until I can send you my finished paper on the topic of love for a class (which will be next friday) I'll stop. I've got more research and heart search to do.
Re: from ClairelovelarkFebruary 18 2005, 12:28:26 UTC
I love how your opinions are so very deeply christian. I hope you don't take offense at that. It's the good kind, you know? It's open and it's benevolent, and it's definately beautiful, but it's very distinctive. I don't mind that. I like hearing it.
It's just curious. There's always something greater, something more, something beyond our comprehension. Everything strives to be more selfless, more honest, more trusting...
I speak in terms of quiescence and pragmatism and liberal ideas. My words are contemplative and searching...very searching. I think you and I live in very different dimensions. We've all heard the same things, and we've been taught the same things. I was raised in the same country, in the same class, in the same lifestyle that you were, and I extracted something different.
I hunger for different things than you do. I'm tired of white-bread and parrables. I'm tired of hymns and group prayer. Isn't that sad? The thought of saying the lords prayer aloud one more time while everyone silently judges everyone else makes me sick. I want to sit under a bodi tree and seek enlightenment by trying to loose my self absorbtion.
But you, you live in a world of light where you want to sit and talk in a living room with an old oil-painting on one of the walls and fresh baked pie on the counter. You want to learn and then learn to share and then learn to be old. You want to make yourself follow the correct and narrow way, while making sure your head is bent at an acceptably pious angle. It's amazing. I envy you, sometimes. Just because you're so sure and confident when you talk about your faith. And then I'm afriad I'll do the same.
my head is a very busy place right now. But I love to listen to you.
I'm thankful for you both. I'm thankful for your deep questions and deep thoughts. I'm thankful for your willingness to let others see you having such important conversations. I'm thankful for you both.
Wow, you two have hit some major things. Majorly major. And it's wonderful to ask such things and to discuss such things while our hearts are free to discover and learn and grow and change and etc...
Now, let's see here, I only have so much time, so I'll try to adress what I can from my heart.
How can you tell if someone is real? That I'd say is a big question here. Well, there are a few ways to approach this:
1. No one can know if they or anyone else is true
2. You can trust that there is the possiblity for truth in each person
I choose the latter and at the same time, I acknowledge the need to think about the first.
If we take the first option, life becomes about duty. Duty to one's self, duty to family, duty to friends, duty to the law, duty to humanity in general. This, although it raises a valid point, must be emptied of experience to undrstand. Duty must come from knowledge gained without experience. It comes from something greater beyond human experience. It is as it is and it is black and white. There is no room to learn from life. The problem that I see is that it doesn't allow for common goodwill. If one only treats another well because they ought to, well, that bothers me because that is not how I want to live & that is not how I want to be treated. You can treat me as well as you want because you ought to, but if you don't want to do what you ought to do because of something deeper, then, I'm sorry, you've lost something grand.
(to be continued)
Reply
Ok, well, the other way to live, let's see, I'd be called blind to the world, optimistic, stupid, idealistic, whatever...I'm happy to be that way. I belive that there is a possiblity for truth in each person. I can't help it...there has to be. Not everyone is consitently truthful, but at somepoint they are real. That's just a fact that if I didn't believe I don't think I'd be able to love.
anyway, I know you both are well read and would love to read more. 2 authors I highly reccommend: Kant and J.S. Mill. And you can't read one without reading the other. They argue and agree and argue and agree & it's pretty cool to think about how people should live with them & what it means to be an individual and free. Whatev. If you ever find time.
(to be continued)
Reply
Yes, I cannot know your specific pain, but I can know what it means to be in pain.
As far as joy and love go, that's where it gets interesting.
Joy. It seems sometimes that there are no words to describe it. Last night, I was utterly wordless and very very happy. I tried to explain it to someone and the mere fact that I was wordless was enough. Another friend tried to ask me why I was so happy...there wasn't a why. Joy just is. How each person expresses joy is different, but joy can be defined, but I don't think I can define it yet. Happiness is not joy. Happiness comes from stuff and you can voice it much more clearly, but joy comes from only one source. I'm not gonna say more on joy, because you both know what I believe the source of joy is. Let's just say, joy is being thankful for fleas eating at you. (The Hiding Place ~Corrie TenBoom)
Love. Funny you should ask. Funny you should comment. My mom and I just had a conversation about love last night. I asked my mom how she knew she was in love with my dad. In summary:
1. It wasn't about her for her & it wasn't about him for him. Selflessness.
2. Trust. Almost like faith. Being able to talk about all things...big & small. Everything from music to hair styles to premarital sex to God to politics to bubbles to drugs to war to frogs and midnight to....etc... AND, with that, knowing that no matter what, no matter your past, your future, your now, the other person will never stop loving you.
3. But most of all, mom made it clear that she fell in love with Dad because they had the same faith. And that faith was the bond that made the selflessness and the trust possible.
(to be continued)
Reply
1. Selflessness
2. Trust
3. Faith
I happen to belive that's the definition of reciprocated love. notice, I say reciprocated. Not all love is. Not all people are capable (currently) to reciprocate love. And like NIck says, the more you show love, the more others want to show it.
It's not about proof. It's about showing it because you want to.
Well...until I can send you my finished paper on the topic of love for a class (which will be next friday) I'll stop. I've got more research and heart search to do.
Reply
I hope your show went well Bethany, & Nick, well, you know.
Reply
It's just curious. There's always something greater, something more, something beyond our comprehension. Everything strives to be more selfless, more honest, more trusting...
I speak in terms of quiescence and pragmatism and liberal ideas. My words are contemplative and searching...very searching. I think you and I live in very different dimensions. We've all heard the same things, and we've been taught the same things. I was raised in the same country, in the same class, in the same lifestyle that you were, and I extracted something different.
I hunger for different things than you do. I'm tired of white-bread and parrables. I'm tired of hymns and group prayer. Isn't that sad? The thought of saying the lords prayer aloud one more time while everyone silently judges everyone else makes me sick. I want to sit under a bodi tree and seek enlightenment by trying to loose my self absorbtion.
But you, you live in a world of light where you want to sit and talk in a living room with an old oil-painting on one of the walls and fresh baked pie on the counter. You want to learn and then learn to share and then learn to be old. You want to make yourself follow the correct and narrow way, while making sure your head is bent at an acceptably pious angle. It's amazing. I envy you, sometimes. Just because you're so sure and confident when you talk about your faith. And then I'm afriad I'll do the same.
my head is a very busy place right now. But I love to listen to you.
Reply
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