Lost in the timeline... please help?
I'm so confused by Kyo, so now i'm asking for help!
Kyo have a katana, Tenro, who is made by Muramasa.
In the flashback in vol. 18 where the true story of Myumis death i revealed, she, Myumi, gives Kyo Tenro before she is killed by Chinmei.
At this time Kyo is in control of Kyoshiros body, right? (and if this is the case, then where is Kyoshiros ( Read more... )
I'm pretty sure that Mayumi's death comes before Kyoshiro takes Kyo's spirit into his body after preserving Kyo's real body in that block of magical ice (Kyo doesn't gain control of the situation until the "current" events we see in the first few volumes of the series).
Note that Kyo may have been in possession of Tenrou (which is actually, I think, a type of sword called a nodachi - bigger than a katana) before then, but perhaps, trusting to Muramasa's mastery of the area around the house, he left Tenrou on the sword rack in the house when he went to sit outside ... is he carrying any weapon when Mayumi comes up with her umbrella and tries to get him to come in out of the rain? (Don't have access to my books at the moment.)
In any case, even if his earlier weapon isn't Tenrou (remember that Muramasa made other similar swords, including Sasuke's "false" Tenrou, which he had before Muramasa gave him Shibien), it makes sense that he would be using a nodachi. One of the online resources I found noted that a man who was big and strong enough to use a nodachi properly had a considerable advantage over someone armed with a regular katana, because of the reach and weight of the nodachi's blade. With Kyo standing about 6 ft tall (very tall for Japan at the time - don't let the Mibu fool you into thinking that kind of height is normal ...), it doesn't surprise me that Muramasa would start him training with a nodachi as soon as it became obvious how tall his pupil was going to be.
That was a busy time, four years ago: Sekigihara, Kyo's departure from the Shiseiten, Mayumi's death, Kyoshiro's assassination of Nozumo and subsequent attack on Kyo ... .
- Cho
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but it makes sense for Muramasa to teach his student with that type of sword... so, I'm a little wiser now.
Thanks! ^_^
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Yeah, you're right about the hair, and that's really, really weird. Maybe that's where Kamijyo-san lost track of stuff ... 'cause remember, at the beginning of the series, Kyoshiro is running things with the body, although he realizes that Kyo might take over ... and that does imply he's lost control before. Well, I'll just have to go home tonight and look through my books, but I know you're right about the short hair, and I think it's going to be just one of those little mysteries.
- Cho
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And I think that, if Kyoshiro lost control, Kyo would go see Muramasa in hope that he might know a way to find his body and get him back inside it...
Or maybe Kamijyo just lost it...
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I think you're 100% right that he would go see Muramasa about something like that. And when they go see Muramasa in the current timeline so that Kyo can learn the advanced techniques, Muramasa isn't surprised to see him in Kyoshiro's body. I thought that was just satori at work, but if Kyo was already trapped that time he was at Muramasa's 4 years ago, that's an even easier explanation. And you know who else wasn't surprised to see him in Kyoshiro's body, even 4 years ago? That rat Chinmei - and he realized it was Kyo, not Kyoshiro. So - yeah, I think that's how the timeline went, you've got it, and I was the one who was confused!
I did check vol. 18, where the flashback to Mayumi's death occurs. Kyo really is unarmed as he sits outside in the rain, waiting for Muramasa (and Mahiro) to get back. He beats all those Mibu soldiers to a pulp with his bare hands - we see him holding the last one up by a grip on the guy's throat, one-handed. Pretty good considering that this may have been one of the first times he's had to fight in that body.
And when Mayumi gives him Tenrou, she says it's Muramasa's sword. So maybe that's when he first gets Tenrou. But that would mean that in all the old days-of-the-Shiseiten flashbacks, he's using some lesser blade. Feh! It's hard to imagine Kyo without Tenrou ... .
(That was kind of fun ... ;-) ... )
- Cho
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But I think it's funny that no one seems to recognize Kyoshiro in his own body, it's like everybody think it's normal for Kyo to be in control of the body.
just read vol. 18 again and you are right, again ;-), he does beat them up with nothing but his bare hands. and it's probably the fist time he had to fight in Kyoshiros body.
but I don't think that he had many troubles adjusting to the body back then, because Kyoshiros body was the body of a high skilled warrior around the time when he defeated Kyo and Kyo has the soul af a killing machine so it's not a bad match.
but either way it's admirable for one person to destroy a group of mibu soldiers with his bare hands.
I sure couldn't do it ^_^
it is quite hard to imagine Kyo without Tenro, then he would have to hold Yuya at night when he couldn't sleep! or something... It's funny that he always sleep with it in his arms, don't you think?
nut all this thinking made me think of something i've thought about before. I've read somewhere that Kyoshiro owned Shibien before Muramasa gave it to Sasuke, but I wonder if Kyoshiro returned it himself or Kyo did or if something else happened?
it's funny to be confused ;-)
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>> it's funny to be confused ;-) <<
LOL! Well, that's not quite what I was saying - I meant it's fun to have people to talk through this kind of stuff with!
I'm sure Kyo holds whatever sword he has when he's asleep - probably part of his warrior training ... I can just see him as that tiny red-eyed urchin, cuddling his first bokken (wooden training sword) when he goes beddy-bye at night. Holding Yuya would probably be more fun but not as useful in the case of a sneak enemy attack (although she can be pretty dangerous, as long as her opponents aren't Mibu elite!).
Kyoshiro gave Shibien back to Muramasa after he'd been manipulated into killing a huge number of people with it, with one death in particular being the last straw ... this comes out in a long series of flashbacks near the end of the series (vol. 37, chapter 294, is where Muramasa gets Shibien back).
- Cho
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but it is fun to talk things over with someone else, because people notice different details and when you put all these details together, you get the whole picture...
Or something... the thought really sounded cool so I hope the words makes sense...
that's the cutest picture of Kyo, cuddeling his bokken, and I'm almost positive that Muramasa could be the type of 'dad', and probably the only person in the world, who would sing Kyo a lullaby.
Aha! I didn't believe for one second that Shibien found its own way like a good dog. Really, please believe me?
So, now I can sit here and wait for number 37 to come out...
that would be in like 2 years or something... *sigh*
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Heh heh, I like the image of Shibien sneaking back home by itself. We actually had a situation like that in a fantasy roleplaying game I was in long, long ago. We had a wizard's staff that we couldn't take along with us at that time for some reason, but it was intelligent and could levitate and move itself, so we gave it directions to go back home to our mentor. Everyone was very fond of it, so we were all giving it good advice: "Travel by night!" "Hide in a ditch if you hear someone coming!" Ahh, those were the days ... !
(Awww, and now I have a picture in my mind of Muramasa singing chibi-Kyo to sleep ... .)
Yeah, it is such a killer waiting for the English volumes to come out. But you can always check out the scans, translations, and scanlations at hana-mi.net in the meantime.
- Cho
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I was just thinking, out of curiosity, does the story say anything about why Shibien was chained up un-assembled at Muramasas?
that Role play-thing sounds funny! especially when everyone is in to the game!
someone should draw that as a picture someday... It could be soo cute.
It really is a killer to wait for the english volumes, yes, but around August the danish volumes will catch up with the english ones and the danish ones comes out each month. so it's not all that bad, but unfortunately a lot of the fun stuff, like Tokitos unique and wonder full personality, Hotarus special hug-able *stupidity* and Akiras brat-like attitude dissapears in the danish language.
and that really is sad. I got in to the english ones at vol. 15 and I got the danish one for free and I was almost crying. The translators, even though they do their best, had tortured this wonderfull story with the danish language, and all that was left of it was an ordinary story with ordinary(almost boring) characters and an extremely annoying Kyo.
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So what's the deal with Danish and the translation? Surely it's just the translators who aren't so good, and not the whole language? Because Sanada has been explaining to me how the translators do various things with English to get across some of the things in the Japanese - sometimes instead of translating directly, they have to pick some more-or-less equivalent idea, or an accent, or something, that gets a similar "feel" in English. I would think that could be done in any language, but that's where translation skill comes in.
Yeah, we had some great games - the gamesmaster on that one was the guy who runs this site. You know, I think we did warn the staff not to talk to strangers!
- Cho
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It's really hard to explain why I don't like the danish ones very much and I only have the english ones to compare with.
but one of the reasons could be that the danish language (now, I don't know how familiar you are with the danish language) does not have much, what to call it, soul.
It's just words. And there are too many of them.
there's unnecessary words everywhere and a good example could be harry potter(just because I can't think of other books right now, hope it's okay); book number 5 are about 200-300 pages longer in the danish edition, and still many of the good and funny comments are missing because, they would never be able sound right in danish. but again, this could be the translators but it is amazing that in a language with so many words, so much gets lost in the translation.
It's sad, because it transfers great stories into just good stories...
If I knew Japanese, I'd be reading SDK in the original language, but sadly I don't....
I'm not sure if this made any sense, and if it sounds weird, then ask again ;-) then i'll try harder...
It's good to know that the staff got so many good advises from you, hope it got home safely...
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The danish publisher who publish SDK, translates from the english version of the manga, and not directly from the japanese one, wich means that it goes under two translations and not only one.
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