Why the Buffyverse?

[lostboy_lj]

I was reading a fanfic musing over at shapinglight's journal.  I started to respond, but it was getting a little long-ish, so I decided to do a post instead.  It's an interesting read in general, but this question in particular stood out to me:

Which leads me to wondering why it is that the Buffyverse is still the only fictional world invented by other people

Comments

[bone_dry1013]

My track record for ficcing in the past several years has been abysmal, but I thought I'd give my (disjointed and unpoetic and rambly) opinion.
I got into fandom when I was way young, so young I was too innocent to know what "shipping" meant until someone explained it to me. And it was for a show I gradually came to realize was absolutely terrible and easily one of the worst ever produced for primetime. After this revelation, I watched a lot of other series, and one of them was Buffy, though I started after it ended. I think by s3 it was my favorite show ever, and I still think that.
Buffy's not the be all end all of shows to me, but as Max said, it's the ideal to me. I feel like there hasn't been a show that did so many things as well, with characters that good and complex and identifiable as BtVS. I'll watch other shows, even shows I like enough to consider ficcing for, and part of me will still be going "Yeah, I love this, but Buffy did something similar better." To me, the verse didn't leave any cracks I feel like I had to fill or justify with fic. There aren't really gaping plot holes or backstory incongruences or episodes that make me feel like I'm being subjected to a gimmick or something written by a writer who doesn't understand the characters (which I realize is a matter of opinion/interpretation, but that's what I think). Other shows besides Buffy (such as the aforementioned Breaking Bad) are capable of telling a coherent story, but none with characters that I actually give a shit about, and none where I didn't have to go "Well, she said in ep A and B she went to NYU, but in this season they say she went Stanford like four times so I guess...head-canon, she transferred?"

My point, ultimately, is that BtVS more or less gave me everything I wanted out of a series. I was never for a moment left feeling cheated or annoyed or like things had dropped off into la la land and I had to pray the next ep would be better (don't get me wrong, there are eps of BtVS I don't love, but Buffy's less-than-great episodes aren't bad, and there's still stuff to redeem them; I can't say that about any other series). I just loved it, and I still love it, and nothing has ever gotten me to invest so deeply in both the story and the characters before or since.

[lostboy_lj]

And it was for a show I gradually came to realize was absolutely terrible and easily one of the worst ever produced for primetime.

I WANT TO KNOW IT (pm me if necessary).

To me, the verse didn't leave any cracks I feel like I had to fill or justify with fic. There aren't really gaping plot holes or backstory incongruences or episodes that make me feel like I'm being subjected to a gimmick or something written by a writer who doesn't understand the characters (which I realize is a matter of opinion/interpretation, but that's what I think)

And this is what conbfounds me: why do we feel the need to extend a near-perfect narrative? Why jam a new piece into a completed puzzle? It would be madness in any other pursuit, but in Art in somehow works out. :S

[bone_dry1013]

I think it's because (at least for me) I love these characters, and I want to see them do more. I want to spend more time with them, learn something else new about them, enjoy the ride with them on another story. Reruns are all fine and dandy (and I consume them like nobody's business) but when you can find a fic that feels like their voices again, it's almost like you get to have a new episode, only longer and with their actual thoughts, not just your guess about their thoughts.
At least, that's why I read fic, and why I'm so extremely picky, and why I pretty much have never read AU or alternate path or slash, because when you start crossing into the realm of OOC, then (for me) you're no longer concerned with extending their story, you're just playing dollhouse with the verse, and when you do that you could pretty much change the names around and do it with any verse. That's one of the reasons why I suck at finishing my own projects, because I become paralyzed at the thought that I'm not doing the verse justice, or flat doing it wrong.

I don't think that's true for a lot of ficcers (and readers), but in complete honesty, I don't understand the majority of fandom, especially for current shows. It feels like all fandom wants is forty minutes of porn-sex with the occasional, breathless "I wuv you so much" "I wuv you too" between fucks. But I digress.

To answer your question, the show was...(embarrassed even to admit it) Bones. I stopped twenty minutes into s5, because I couldn't do it anymore. I could write you an essay on why it's terrible, and why the fandom for it (which I was apart of for four years) is both toxic and idiotic. The fact that that monstrosity is still on air is one of the primary confusions of my life, right up there with "why am I still in this major?" and "why does my cat fart on my lap?"

[lostboy_lj]

To answer your question, the show was...(embarrassed even to admit it) Bones.

Oh OK, but I think I could have guessed that from your journal. Also, "Bones" is a staple in my household, because Lostgirl loves it dearly (as in a "I must watch this episode six times in a row" kind od love). As for me, I think Bones is mostly a good show -- probably because I'm such a Sherlock Holmes fan and so I have an affinity for all it's modern derivatives. I also have a theory about why Holmes in particular is so popular right now, including shows like "Bones", "House", the BBC series and the new Lucy Lu thing... but that's probably a topic for a different day. :)

[bone_dry1013]

I used to love it, because I loved Brennan. I think to this day she's one of the only openly atheist characters on television, and I thought she was a great character. But then everything went horribly wrong (everything) and she became an idiot with dialogue quality so poor, it actively made me mute her. And scream. And then there was just...everything else. People who started in s3/4 never got it, but I think most of the s1 fans filtered out, like I did, because it changed so drastically.
I just...I've written essays on why that show is awful. Passionate essays. Ugh. It used to keep me up at night. For real. But I'll restrain the compulsion.

[red_satin_doll]

To answer your question, the show was...(embarrassed even to admit it) Bones.

Heh. I just got into it on Netflix, and it was just good, light popcorn-y entertainment (when I can figure out "who done it" you know the mystery ain't so mysterious); but I found DB charming as opposed to his stint in BtVS. the other day did a marathon S2+ watch and found myself screaming at the screen "Zack Addy did WHAT?" it pretty much lost all it's charm for me - or my respect. Then - well, other things. The continuing descent into Bones' "oh woe is me-ville" doesn't help. And I should be more sympathetic because I love s6, right? I understand what Buffy is going through but the show MAKES ME understand; not in an "you're stupid we've gotta hold your hand through this" kind of way, but it's just there for me, to connect with or not, and everything that happens in the later seasons has already been foreshadowed in some way almost from the very first season. Character growth is mostly very organic and I understand why characters do what they do (and if I don't, I can always blame the writers *heh*). Having gone through the entire series there's very little that occurs that is entirely OOC or that doesn't make sense in the fabric of the 'vrse.

[bone_dry1013]

The thing about Bones is just that it's terribly written, and edited, and (by s3) scored. With consistency, they could never remember character backstory (Brennan was in foster care until her granparents got her out, oh, wait, she never knew her granparents, oh, wait, she has a cousin, oh, wait...), they could never keep set consistency (just look at Brennan's apartment everytime it's shown just for s2 alone; hell, even her office changes), and they could never keep character motivation consistent. And if you want to see the most terribly edited episode of television I've ever seen, just watch Man in the Fallout Shelter and pay attention to whose got the skeleton when. And retcons just...everywhere. That 100th "how they met" episode was an abomination. There's absolutely no respect for character arcs or continuity. Don't even get me started on Brennan's devolution into this robotic, social-retard who apparently needs Booth to mediate all interactions outside the lab...Or Zack (my poor, sweet Zack, whom I loved...).

What's worse is they somewhat obviously rip off the far superior Crossing Jordan dozens of times. Hanson credited X-Files as his influence, but you can see Jordan and the rest of that cast written all over Bones.

Also, after s1, they always put the fibula in the wrong place. s1 they mostly got it right, but after that...

Okay, yeah, that was totally unnecessary...but damn it felt good...

[red_satin_doll]

Sometimes you just gotta let it all hang out.... :)

I was watching it on a marathon the other day - all of S2, then skipping around the remainder of the seasons (beginnings/endings and a few in between, which I know isn't fair to the series - Buffy would make no sense whatsoever if I watched it that way). But I just felt a shift - and then the Zack thing, like I said above was just beyond WTF? Romantic pairings that were interesting and likeable (Booth/Cam, Brennan/Sully) but broken up for no reason in order to what - dangle the possibility of a Booth/Brennan romance for another four years? When I liked them just fine as friends anyway? I don't know why that always has to be the endgame. Only to domesticate the both of them -meh. (One episode they cuddle in bed and then she's pregnant in the very next ep?)

And I liked Brennan very quickly even if she had a "Mary Sue" quality at times - amazingly smart and kick-ass; could defend herself in a fight; she had certain Buffy-like aspects about herself that I appreciated in terms of her strength, competence and as well as her isolation.

Doesn't the decline in quality coincide with DB & ED becoming producers of the show?

I've never watched "Crossing Jordan" do you recommend it?

[bone_dry1013]

I think the reason you got that whole Brennan/Booth will-they-won't-they thing so strongly was because the fandom really pushed for it. More so than any fandom I've ever seen. The only one that I've seen that comes close is the Castle fandom, but not even they're that extreme. The amount of hatred in that fandom for anyone even remotely romantically competing with those two was unbelievable (see: Sully and Tess, Tess whom you may not even remember from s1, and Cam...poor Cam)
And, yeah, I noticed at the time that the decline in quality did coincide with ED and DB becoming producers. But, even so, the show was weak from scene 1, so I'm not sure I can blame the actors entirely (though I feel safe in blaming her for her hair...ugh). I don't even know who to blame for what Brennan became though.

Crossing Jordan is my favorite of all the crime shows. I think it's the best and most interesting, and easily has the best cases. The way they treat the victims is also the best (to me, anyway), with grieving parents and widows whom you actually remember for their performances (some are even moving). I think a lot of later shows took pages out of CJ's book (mostly thinking of Bones and Castle), due to some extremely blatant similarities I have a hard time believing are coincidental. Jordan herself is up in my top 5 of favorite characters of all time period, somewhere just short of Buffy (numero uno).
The show has its faults, don't get me wrong. Nowhere near as flawless as Buffy. It had a tendency to constantly put one or more characters in Mortal Danger (which is a trope I love, so I ate it up), and the levels of CSI-esque magic are off the charts (was a struggle, but I ultimately let it go). The score in s1 is really obnoxious, and the pacing in that season is a little off, though I still enjoy it overall. There will most likely be things that bug you in the first few episodes, but those things will fade away. The new score style in s2 really helps with that (and the new opening, thank the gods).
Other than that, I highly recommend CJ. It's the only crime show I can rerun a lot. If you liked Brennan you'll more than likely like Jordan, because to some degree they're the same person, only Jordan is far more believable and doesn't do the kung fo (does do the gun though). She's an emotionally unstable badass. She's way fun. And then there's Garrett Macy, who's a bit like Jordan's Giles. I love him.

But if you do watch it, and you're concerned with continuity, s3 was aired out of order, so the finale of s2 on Netflix won't lead to the premiere of s3. The finale is a cliffhanger, so it will absolutely ruin it for you if you don't get it in the right order. If you get that far and remember, check the comments list on Netflix for it, but if you don't see it you can just PM me and I'll tell you what order to do it in. If you have to remember anything, it's that the finale for s3 is supposed to be the premiere, so the order is s2 finale, then s3 finale.

(perhaps more detail that you want, but holy crap do I love that show and no one watches it or even knows what it is)

[red_satin_doll]

(see: Sully and Tess, Tess whom you may not even remember from s1, and Cam...poor Cam)

I do remember Tess - as I'm watching on Netflix not a lot of time has passed (I'm still on S2 but have skipped ahead at various points so I know the overall arc to the end of S7). Poor Cam, indeed - I thought she made a great addition to the cast, (the episode where she and bones had to come to terms as two professional women, negotiating and sharing power, was terrific and rarely seen; there were no "bad guys" in that scenario.) I could really ship Cam/Booth & Sully/Bones (heck I could ship Bones and angela before i ship her and booth, because I like them as friends more than anything.) Once those characters are removed and the triangulations eliminated, then the story looses something, some of the snap, and sexiness. ("testosterone spill on aisle four").

(though I feel safe in blaming her for her hair...ugh)

Do you mean the season 6 bangs? *shudder* Right up there (down there?) with Buffy's S3 bangs as unpardonable offenses.

That is high praise for CJ indeed, so I'll give it a try, thanks for the rec. ("Emotionally complex badass"? Sign me up.) I love complex characterizations and such (obviously, since I love the Buffyverse); Bones was actually one of the first series I convinced my S.O. to watch that wasn't a comedy. (We watched Weeds, USA of Tara and Nurse Jackie, but those are comedy/drama- dramadies? - to varying degrees. It's definitely the first crime procedural.)

I don't think I've heard of Castle but no surprise, I don't keep up with tv series very much.

[bone_dry1013]

Cam/Booth was my ship. I was the only one on the official forums for...three? years that that shipped them. The Cam-hate was pretty ridiculous, especially early on.
God, the s6 Brennan hair was just...ugh. No words.

I redid the pilot of Crossing Jordan right after telling you to watch it just as a refresher. I feel that the pilot gives a pretty good indication of what you're in for when it comes to Jordan. Like, the first scene you'll probably know right off if she's right for you (I did...that first scene I pretty much said aloud to my computer "Sold" and then watched it for like...a lot of hours straight). Jordan shares some personality traits with Buffy that I think are important, but she's far more neurotic and six times less trusting. In general I don't think I've felt closer to any other character besides Buffy, and George from Dead Like Me (which is another amazing show).

And Castle is my favorite of the current line-up on primetime (not that that's a monumental achievement, given the current line-up, but...). If you like Jordan and you said you liked Brennan, you'd probably like Beckett (if you're a Nathan Fillion fan, which I am, he's the foil). Mostly solid, with more of a comedy bent than a drama one. I think of Beckett as Jordan's far less impulsive, less neurotic, and less reckless sister, or like Brennan's better socially adjusted cousin. s1 is mostly weak character-wise, but has some really excellent direction. It finds itself somewhere in s2, then holds strong until late s4, then mostly recovered this season (s5). What's interesting is it starts off very much with Castle as the lead and Beckett as foil, but then switches around s2/3ish to the opposite. I tend to prefer female-driven shows, so if you're like me you may like it.
The downside to Castle and Bones is that after Crossing Jordan I at least really saw the weakness in those other two shows. CJ took risks with its characters that Castle and Bones never have the courage to, and Jordan is far more dynamic than Brennan or Beckett and consequently is more fun and more real. To some degree, Jordan ruined some of Castle's fun, because I look at the blatant similarities between Jordan and Beckett and say to myself, "Beckett, just...be more like Jordan, please?"

That was long and rambly again, but my basic point is: Castle's good, CJ's better, but watch both if you're looking for fun crime show time. But, seriously, watch Jordan, because that show has no fanbase and I have been dying to talk about that show since I found it.

[red_satin_doll]

Cam/Booth was my ship. I was the only one on the official forums for...three? years that that shipped them. The Cam-hate was pretty ridiculous, especially early on.

Seriously? Two sexy, intelligent, well-matched people with definite chemistry - that's just all kinds of WRONG. Or as Cam might say, "Now THAT is seriously disturbing, people." And if I didn't know that this sort of thing goes on in every fanbase, I'd be tempted to say "damn downright racist" but I'm sure it's more along the lines of "I want MY ship to be together, waaaaahhhhhh.....".

I mean, I love S7 Buffy/Spike to bits, but I never imagined that Spike has to be her one and only forever and ever love - isn't the point of Spuffy that it isn't Bangel?

Also, I was going to say the Bitch factor (as with Buffy) but on some levels Cam is warmer; but on others, yes, brusque, funny, accomplished, no-nonsense, not looking for a man to complete her - wait, what's the downside here?And Bones has (had) so many potential fun couples (I find Jack and Angela boring because they were just foisted on us out of the blue) - to whittle that down to Bones and Booth will they or won't they is just - ugh. Bored, now.

(I did...that first scene I pretty much said aloud to my computer "Sold" and then watched it for like...a lot of hours straight)

I did exactly that with Buffy - the scene with Giles in WTTH when she scolds him "Prepares me for what? For getting kicked out of school? For losing all of my friends? For having to spend all of my time fighting for my life...?" is what made me think "I have to watch this" and I consumed the entire show in about three weeks.

Jordan shares some personality traits with Buffy that I think are important, but she's far more neurotic and six times less trusting.

Ok, I have to watch this show because I can't even begin to wrap my head around that "six times less trusting?" Oy. And I adored Dead Like Me - I can't believe that show was cancelled after only two seasons. I loved the mother's arc, how she went from "stereotypical bitch mom" in the premiere to a three-dimensional human being; I loved the wit, the office politics. I don't know that I felt close to Georgie the way I do Buffy, but I enjoyed every minute of her company.

But, seriously, watch Jordan, because that show has no fanbase and I have been dying to talk about that show since I found it.

Wait, what? I thought EVERYTHING nowadays has a fan base of some sort. Especially with the internet.

[bone_dry1013]

"I want MY ship to be together, waaaaahhhhhh.....".

Yeah. That. If I remember, early on, when Cam was first introduced and they first got together, it was people actively imagining her dead so Brennan and Booth could get back together (like...fanfic). The same thing happened to Sully and that one chick Booth dates a few seasons later. (Heather? I don't remember.)
Anyway, yeah, in the fandom if you came between B/B, that was it.

..."I have to watch this" and I consumed the entire show in about three weeks.

That was actually the same scene that sealed my fate too. XD s1 was soo friggin' campy, especially the first time, but with Buffy it was a pretty immediate "I can see myself loving this chick." By the end of s1, it was hopeless, man. I think by s3 I was actively doing reruns just to slow down my consumption.

"six times less trusting?"
Six times less trusting. There are several episodes where while I was watching it it didn't really occur to me, but then after the episode or on rerun I suddenly realize that Jordan literally told not another living soul about whatever adventure she got caught up in this episode. After doing the series again (and again) it just occurred to me I have never seen a character share less than Jordan. Jordan will like...actively take the blame for something or lie outright to her closest friends just to ensure that she doesn't have to share personal information. At least Buffy could be counted on to open up most of the time (though progressively less as the series goes on), but while Jordan grew in other areas, she could never bring herself to trust people who only meant the best for her. Watching the way she'd sidestep personal questions sometimes is amazing to behold. By the end of the series, I swear, no one knows 86.4% the crap she got into, or at least the extent of it.
This makes it the most beautiful thing when she actually allows herself to talk about something. I don't know if the character she's talking to feels that way (though I suspect they do), but I always see it as her revealing this extremely delicate butterfly/flower she'd been harboring close to her chest and allowing someone else to hold it. For just a moment. There's this one scene...ugh.
Don't even get me started on Jordan/Garret, which is never for one second played as will-they-won't-they even though it would've been the easiest thing ever. Their relationship is so beautiful the only one that's comparable is Buffy/Giles.

Wait, what? I thought EVERYTHING nowadays has a fan base of some sort.

Nope. CJ fell off the map because NBC only released s1 on DVD and the only channel it reran (past tense) on was a channel no one has ever friggin heard of. But now at least it streams on Netflix. I have Amazon set so that when CJ is released physically or digitally, I will be emailed, because I will spend all the money just to ensure that I can't lose that show because of Netflix taking it down. It'd be like losing Buffy. All I have is my s1 DVDs, and if I couldn't have the rest of the series ever again I'd probably have a nervous breakdown. Imagine if all you ever got to see again was s1/2 of Buffy. That's what I worry about all the time. It'd be like, you'd have the evidence here of a great series about to happen, but the other seasons would just be a folktale you tell around the campfire, with each recounting getting farther and farther away from the original and with Jordan (or Buffy, in this metaphor) becoming progressively more and more mythological and her actions as you remember them becoming more and more amazing and heartbreaking and beautiful.
If the show had a friggin fanbase, we could fight to get it released already, but there's no one for my passion to rally. But maybe this is the rebirth of the fandom, right here. You could watch and hopefully love it just as much, then spread the word, and then your friends could tell other friends, and maybe some people will randomly view this conversation and also watch CJ, and then two months from now we will march on NBC and demand Jordan reruns on channels people actually watch and digital distribution (at the least) of s2-6...

On the subject of DLM, I feel closer to Buffy and Jordan, but George...man, I looooved that chick.