Rules of Engagement: Violence and Hyperreality in the Buffyverse

[lostboy_lj]

rebcake recently posted a poll regarding the onset of Buffy and Spike's sexual relationship in the BtVS episode "Smashed."  I answered "neither" and began to post a comment to explain, but it started to get long-ish, so I thought I'd just do a long-ish blog post instead.  What I wrote turned out to be somewhat off-topic in terms of her poll, and more

Comments

[bone_dry1013]

I'm not sure why the number of times who initiated what really matters. It feels like a fairly trivial point to quibble over.

I think the main problem I see is that people try to squeeze Buffy and Spike down into these bite-size, single-identity little roles: Buffy as victim, Spike as abuser (or whatever), which I think takes them completely out of context, because people are not just one thing. A simple count of who initiated sex the most times is meaningless, because it's clear from how their relationship was written that they were both getting something out of it, and it was consensual for both of them up until SR. Spike was definitely aggressive, but then again so was Buffy. I don't think there was necessarily an imbalance of power between the two of them in their relationship, and trying to find one isn't really fair to them as characters, because Buffy and Spike weren't written as metaphors, they were written as people. And at that, two miserable, self-loathing people constantly in some state of grief or another.

One thing I love about the series, I think above all the things I love, is that Buffy is never really victimized (which is something I can't say about...almost any other show), so the implication that she was somehow being dominated in her relationship with Spike just kind of bugs.

[aycheb]

I'm not sure why the number of times who initiated what really matters. It feels like a fairly trivial point to quibble over.
I agree but these debates always seem to come down to that. Everyone begins with the best it "they both gave as good as they got" intentions but as soon as one person starts down the "But X was obviously the main sexual aggressor/had the all the real power in the relationship" these counting games begin. It's as if fandom abhors a balance.

I can maybe see why someone would think that if they looked at like...just that scene in Seeing Red in isolation (which to be frank still disturbs me like nothing on TV has ever disturbed me and paired with Tara's death and Buffy being shot is the reason I have trouble watching that ep at all), but Smashed?
Smashed is no Seeing Red but I do thing the seeds of the bathroom scene are visible there. Even more so in the morning after from hell scene that follows. Maybe it didn't have to go that way but it did.

[boot_the_grime]

Yeah, I agree with all of that. But the number of times who initiated sex came up because it was stated that Buffy was the "sexual aggressor" most of the times, which isn't quite true. I think that this tends to happen when people are arguing against the view of Buffy as a the Victim and Spike as the Abuser, and people then go to the other extreme in trying to make their point and claim that Buffy initiated almost all the sex and was more sexually aggressive or had all the power etc. which isn't what happened. And although that wasn't lostboy's intention and he's not one of people with these views, the opposite extreme view that Spike was the Victim and Buffy was the Abuser is also quite common in fandom just as the other one.

[lostboy_lj]

I'm not sure why the number of times who initiated what really matters. It feels like a fairly trivial point to quibble over.

Yeah, it is. I think the real point is that the references to "stalking" that the characters themselves make (particularly Xander) belies the truth of the relationship that is forming between them, and Buffy knows it. "Stalking" is a form of highbrow fart joke, in that way, because the Metaphor-Masters that are the Scooby Gang call it out by name.

This is really showcased in the kitchen scene of "Gone", both by Xander's reaction to walking in them:

XANDER: Good Godfrey Cambridge, Spike! Still trying to mack on Buffy? Wake up already. Never gonna happen! (Spike and Buffy glaring at him) Only a complete loser would ever hook up with you. (Buffy looking insulted) Well, unless she's a simpleton like Harmony, or a, or a nut sack like Drusilla.

The look on Buffy's face is the proverbial Picture Worth a Thousand Words. She knows (and we know) that Spike's affections are no longer as simple as an unwanted crush. She is now pursuing him too.

[bone_dry1013]

She knows (and we know) that Spike's affections are no longer as simple as an unwanted crush. She is now pursuing him too.

And I think that's the thing that a lot of a fandom doesn't really see when they get into these arguments. Their relationship wasn't as simple as Spike manipulating and maneuvering Buffy into taking her pants off, or Buffy just using Spike for abuse and convenience. It was a relationship, and even though it was definitely unhealthy they were both seeking each others affections (when they weren't beating each other up). You can't just boil it down to who initiated sex when, as if that has any relevance at all. I mean, we're not studying the mating habits of fruit flies here. Sex was a (large) aspect of their relationship, but it obviously wasn't the full substance of it, or the s7 Buffy/Spike relationship could never have existed the way it did.

I don't understand the impulse to turn Buffy or Spike into a Victim or an Abuser. It completely negates who they are as characters and tosses aside their arcs and everything we know about them in favor of these annoying, neat little metaphors that have absolutely nothing to do with what's actually going on.

(and especially with characters I love as much as Buffy and Spike...it's one thing to be arguing about annoying metaphors in a show with characters who have all the personality of a cardboard cut-out, but not BtVS)

[lostboy_lj]

I don't understand the impulse to turn Buffy or Spike into a Victim or an Abuser. It completely negates who they are as characters and tosses aside their arcs and everything we know about them in favor of these annoying, neat little metaphors that have absolutely nothing to do with what's actually going on.

I'm often pretty confused about that too, but I think I somewhat get it. I think the reason is wrapped up in a certain kind of literary theory that's was building up steam for a couple of generations, and crossed over into the mainstream of academia in the 90's (and into mainstream of pop culture/consciousness too, with blockbuster action films like "The Matrix"). The nexus of philosophies and movements behind that would be easy to oversimplify even with a book-length dissertation, but I think the common belief at their core is that art can only be understood in a political context, because it's only value is to enhance a polemic. I think that's an incredibly limiting way to view art (and humanity!), but it is very in-vogue and provides a nice ego outlet.

[bone_dry1013]

...art can only be understood in a political context, because it's only value is to enhance a polemic.

I remember encountering that kind of thing in English classes, and it always annoyed me. Sometimes a river is just, you know, a river and a fight is just a fight, and when you spend so long looking for what everything represents at its core, unless it's something written with that obvious kind of agenda (e.g. Animal Farm), you're completely missing the point of the story and sucking the life out of it at the same time.
I've always felt that if a story is so uncomplicated that you can boil it down to what everything represents, it can't possibly be a good story. To me, BtVS is a great story, and it's such a shame for it to be so undervalued in this way.
Frankly, it's a shame to undervalue anything in this way.

[tabaqui]

*late to the party*

Every time people try to make Spike and Buffy and their relationship a cardboard cutout, I think about Buffy going to Spike and drinking (the 'bleergh!' scene in his crype) and how she just wanted someone she could *talk* to. Someone who got her, who didn't condemn her darker impulses or try to jolly her into a more comfortable 'normality'.

And holy god, Spike tending to Buffy's hands when she's dug herself out of her own grave? That scene is chock full of emotions and layers and nuances and Buffy shutting down the minute the Scoobies walk in (or, pasting on the mask) and Spike just leaving, turning it all off....

I never 'liked' them together, because it seemed so destructive and ugly too much of the time, and they wrote the characters together in ways they didn't when apart. But i also don't like seeing it dumbed down, either.

[bone_dry1013]

It's never too late for the party! :D

And holy god, Spike tending to Buffy's hands when she's dug herself out of her own grave? That scene is chock full of emotions and layers and nuances and Buffy shutting down the minute the Scoobies walk in (or, pasting on the mask) and Spike just leaving, turning it all off....

Yeah, I know. Scenes like that are prime examples of times when they had their own special connection, completely independent of hate, loathing, or face-punching. When people make their entire relationship out to be one of abuse and complete dysfunction, I feel like they were watching a different show than I was.

Although I differ from you in that I actually did like them together, and not just because any excuse to have James Marsters shirtless is a good excuse. As dysfunctional as it was, to some degree I feel like Spike really was the only person to get her, and her relationship with him was one in which they both seemed to feel they were more or less on equal footing, which I don't think was true of her relationship with Angel or Riley (Angel always felt kind of condescending to me, and Riley always seemed to see himself as inferior to her). Sometimes I try to imagine a world where Buffy was resurrected while Riley or Angel was still around and...yeah, I just can't see it.

[tabaqui]

Ah, i should clarify. :) I didn't like them in a romantic/sexual relationship. That just seemed to always veer off into things that did neither of them any good.

But when they were *friends*? Or, as close as they could be to friends? It was very, very good. Because, yes - he *did* get her, he did let her do and say things the Scoobies would have reacted badly to, he *did* have her back. And she didn't take his crap or fall for his bullshite, but she did see that he could be more than his surface. She *listened* to him, which was more, i think, than she ever did with Riley or Angel. He *got* to her.

My ideal Buffy and Spike is one of friendship and comrades in arms, protecting the world (and Manchester U) from idiots who want to turn the world inside out. Buffy keeps Spike from his more rash impulses and Spike is her 'voice of truth', since he won't flinch from telling her things other people (Scoobies) want to hide from her.

I have to agree with the other - Angel always treated her like a sweet-sixteen, never been kissed who shouldn't get her hands dirty, and Riley kind of did the same, until he started to resent her.

[bone_dry1013]

It's weird how symbiotic they were, given the circumstances of their relationship. Back when I first started watching someone told me Spike would eventually become Buffy's love interest, and I remember watching s2 Spike and going "Huh?" Yet by the time you get to s6 it completely makes sense.

I've pretty much always been on the fence when it comes to their sexual relationship. Part of me loves it, part of me doesn't. Everytime I feel like I've decided which camp to go with an episode changes my mind. I guess as long as they're still friends (or...whatever) I'm just gonna feel free to enjoy without a clear opinion.

[tabaqui]

It's funny, because when he goes to her and is all 'i'll help if you'll let me and Dru go' I could totally see them being kinda friends. They were already working as a team, you know? Telling lies to Buffy's mom, keeping their word to each other, being as mature as those two ever got in that season as they worked out their plan....

And when Spike goes to kill Buffy, but instead sits down and his first impulse is 'is there anything i can do'.... She doesn't shout at him or tell him to leave, she just lets him sit there in silent support with her.... They really could have been an awesome team. :)

I have my Spander for sex in the Buffy 'verse (and the occasional Spike/Xander/Oz), so i don't let the irritations of their sexual 'ship bother me. :)

[bone_dry1013]

Well, luckily they were an awesome team, up until he went all firework and ended up in the City of Angels.
(obviously not caring about comics for my canon)

[tabaqui]

Heeeeeee.
I haven't read any of the comics, just the shows. From idle commentary around the 'web, people seem pretty meh about the comics.

[bone_dry1013]

I got as far as "Dawn's a centaur" before I was like, "Yeah, no. Just...no. Not ever."

[tabaqui]

..............Wow.