(Untitled)
This is a continuation of a discussion that I got into over on Lee Goldberg's blog that got severely off track. It's probably not of much interest to the majority of my flist, but click on the cut if you're interested.
( Blathering about etiquette vs. ethics and debate styles )
( Blathering about etiquette vs. ethics and debate styles )
(ey-up, in case you followed the link here: I made this post a while ago regarding the motivation to write fic... the post was triggered by the discussion on Goldberg's blog, but I didn't feel like linking my LJ over there. However I'm genuinely interested in hearing differing opinions to check that pet theory, so feel free to drop by to disagree.)
It's probably not of much interest to the majority of my flist, but click on the cut if you're interested.
Heh. Well, count me interested. The Great Fic Debate never gets boring as far as I'm concerned. I've actually been following the zombie thread since its recent revival. FWIW, I enjoy your arguing style tremendously. Your logic is sound, which is refreshing (and a rarity in Lee's fic discussions, otherwise mostly known for fast-flying ad hominems, sweeping generalizations, conflating of unrelated issues... and trolls spouting misogynistic remarks, for some reason.)
Semantics is boring, I'll grant you, but if we are using fundamentally different definitions for the same ( ... )
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You know, I have been hanging around on that blog too long - after having seen fic writers get called pedophiles and losers, 'rude' didn't even register as an insult. Though I suppose it is. In any case, I strongly disagree with the sentiment, being of the mindset that no permission should be needed. [tl;dr warning...]
And I normally wouldn't call someone on it - it's too minor. All I said was that writing fanfic without permission is perfectly polite within the fanfic community and that manners aren't relevant to a question of ethics. Approximately 10,000 words and 8-15 posts later, here we are. Proof that no internet argument can ever be settled quickly.
I'm in the 'fic is critical commentary' camp as well. It's simply a different approach: coming from the right side of the brain as opposed to traditional analysis. I actually think that the majority of fanfic falls into this category. Long, plotty stories in the style of the original work are really in the minority. I'll have to do a survey ( ... )
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OMFG I hate that word.
:oD
"fic" is a diminutive of fiction. A noun, not a verb. "To fic", "he ficked", "ficking", "to get ficked" - these are not real words, people! Of course you'll notice that it is the anti-fanfic crowd that uses it this way. No doubt the similarity to "fuck" is amusing to them. God forbid they simply call it writing - then they'd have to, in some peripheral way, admit that fans can be writers. */pedant*
Actually I've seen it used in fandom as well, only then it's usually spelled 'ficcing, ficced, ficcer'. I've even caught myself using the verb form once or twice but I was cured of that really quicky - I was talking about fic with my rl friends, using the English expressions as one tends to do, and they looked at me like I'd lost my mind. Unfortunately 'fic' sounds exactly like 'fick', which is German for 'fuck'. 'Ficker' is a schoolyard insult and a pretty nasty word overall. It's really distracting if people spell it that way.
And ( ... )
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Re: the word ficked
Ok, I may be overreacting there. Now that you point it out, I do see other fans using it so it's hardly fair to criticize non-fans for having picked up on it. It just doesn't get under my skin the same way when fans use it. I guess it's similar to how I don't mind my friends calling me girl, but from strangers it sounds like a dismissal - I'm a woman, dammit! Still don't like the word, but I'm a stickler for language.
Proof that no internet argument can ever be settled quickly.
...if ever. The problem here is that a lot of it boils down to gut feeling...doesn't seem to have much to do with logic... This is the thing that always trips me up - what the hell do their feelings have to do with ethics? I must be particularly good at compartmentalizing or something, though if you had asked me before all this I would have said I'm more of a gestalt thinker. Just shows that perception is more dependent on your ( ... )
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...I think you and ey-up seem to have a different view regarding the internet as private/public sphere...I'm getting the impression (I may be wrong) that ey-up thinks that everything on the internet is by definition public, so by that definition an LJ fic community wouldn't be so much a large group of friends and like-minded people hanging out in someones huge back yard (which would be the way I see it), and more like a public message board...Actually, I think the opposite - the internet is public, no question. But public and "out in the open for all to see" are not the same thing in my mind, and I think they are in hers. I meant the leather bar example quite literally - it's a public place for all that it's behind closed doors. It's a reasonable expectation that you'll have control over who comes into your backyard - not so for the leather bar. Anyone can walk right in and be "assaulted" by the sight of someones naked ass in leather chaps and a thong. But they would have no right to criticize because no one forced ( ... )
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Yeah, it completely rubs me the wrong way if I seem the anti-fic crowd use it that way. Personally I think it's extremely rude if someone calls me 'ficker'. And yet, I couldn't call them on it... it probably didn't even cross their mind that they were being rude, because in their own circle calling us 'fickers' might not be considered bad manners.
I love the smell of irony in the morning.
I'll have to look that one up (haven't been over to metafandom in months - looks like it's time to dip in again).
Metafandom linked lots of interesting discussion re fanfic and author's wishes ... must be that time of year.
The above mentioned poll
cereta's follow-up post, with lots of ( ... )
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The above mentioned poll cereta's follow-up post, with lots of interesting discussion in the comments.
I found that after you pointed me at Metafandom. I love cereta's posts - she always make's me think (even when I don't agree) and she can say what I mean to say in about half the space and elegantly (I really kind of hate that years of scientific literature has made my writing extremely didactic).
Re: Tamora Pierce and Lost Girls by Moore
Wow - that discussion hit a lot of buttons with me, and not because I agree with her at all. I actually wrote quite a bit in response, but I'm still up in the air as to whether I should comment over there or here or at all, so I'll have to get back to you on that.
Oh, but first I have to ask: gay penguins?? I don't read SGA but I'd love a link for that.Heee! It's part of the Animallia sequence by Leah, set in the PegasusB alternate universe (talk about a jazz session - PegB is an amazing ( ... )
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"So, that gets us exactly, where?" Jack asked. *Gay penguin sex*, his brain supplied helpfully. Jack put his hand over his eyes.
*snicker*
Wow - that discussion hit a lot of buttons with me, and not because I agree with her at all. I actually wrote quite a bit in response, but I'm still up in the air as to whether I should comment over there or here or at all, so I'll have to get back to you on that.
I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts. I read only parts of that discussion so far, not being familiar with 'Lost Girls' in the first place. Apart from that, there are so many interesting meta discussions lately that it is getting hard to keep up reading.
In a way that makes sense, since he's a single author in that case (although wouldn't the artists have separate copyrights to the artwork?) although I wonder how that works, since he's using essentially the same universe as Buffy? But then, he's the single creator of the ( ... )
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*snicker*You're welcome ( ... )
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(higher than in tv fandoms, I mean, not higher overall)
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I'll have to look that one up (haven't been over to metafandom in months - looks like it's time to dip in again).
The results were interesting. Bottom line, looks like the majority would disregard the creator's wish to abstain from fic. That number was higher than I expected, actually. But in book fandoms the numbers of fans who'd go by the authors wishes were higher, unsurprisingly.I think this probably goes both ways - TV and Film producers and writers seem to be much more practical about their work. They're used to seeing it as a group effort with multiple viewpoint inputs. They realize how dependent they are on fans for an audience and market for secondary products. And they're used to the idea of any advertising being good advertising. Besides which most of the fan work is in such a different medium than the original that it's easier to build emotional distance from them ( ... )
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