An Exercise in Futility
is how I would describe arguing with a Baptist.
I have been doing just that recently. I would like to share my most recent triumphs (he certainly doesn't see them that way, but, ah, whatever).
First, we were arguing about whether we are saved by faith and works or by faith alone. I claim that we are saved by both faith and works. What is my reasoning behind this?
James 2:24 -- See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
At first glance, this scripture means little. So what if we are justified by good works? That just means that we are proving that we're good people, right? Wrong. Allow me to explain why.
Justification, from the Greek δικαιοω (dikaioō), "to declare/make righteous". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justifi...%28theology%29
The original Greek word that was used meant "to make righteous". We are therefore made righteous by our works and not by our faith alone. "Righteous" means "free from guilt or sin". So by being "made righteous", we are being made free of guilt, which is what we have after committing sin.
Matthew 13:49-50 -- This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
The word "righteous" is used extensively in the Bible, but this passage sums it up rather nicely.
In order to be righteous, we must have good works. In order to be saved by grace, we must have faith. Therefore, we are saved by grace through faith justified by works. Remove any part of the chain and the entire thing fails.
I even went on to explain why he was misinterpreting the word "justify":
The Bible was first translated into Latin (called the Vulgate) by St. Jerome around 400 AD. The Greek word would then have been translated into "justus", meaning "upright, just", or "justificare" -- which was derived from "justus" -- meaning "to forgive". This word would have adopted the meaning of the original Greek word at that time. Eventually, the English version would use the word "justify", which was derived from the Latin word "justificare". The word "justify" would retain the old Greek definition (as you can see by looking it up), but would also take on a more common use, which would later be seen to confuse Protestants everywhere.
As of yet, he has not responded to this argument. The only way he possibly can is if he makes his original claim, and the only way he can do that is by completely ignoring everything I said.
Anyway, he has since given me this list of "unfounded" Catholic teachings:
-Purgatory
-Pope infallibility
-Praying to dead people instead of God (Mary, Saints)
-Priest celibacy
-Birth control
-Baptizing babies
-Holding church services in a language few can understand
-Holy water
-Prayer Beads
-Transubstantiation
-Confession of sins to a priest
-Holding that tradition is of equal authority with the Bible
-Indulgences
...to which I replied with this:
***
Purgatory
Matthew 5:25-6: Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way to court with him. Otherwise your opponent will hand you over to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison. Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.
The judge here is God. This can be seen from the previous verses, where Jesus mentions that "whoever is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment", and only God the father can cast judgment. He makes no mention of you handing your "opponent" over to the judge -- only the reverse. This suggests that your opponent either cannot be judged or has already been judged. We know that none can escape judgment, so it must be the latter. The word "opponent"
is used elsewhere (1 Peter 5:8) in reference to Satan. Satan has already been judged, so this translation for the word "opponent" makes sense. So now, if we take judge to mean "God" and opponent to mean "Satan", if we do not settle with Satan before judgment, we will be "thrown into prison...until you have paid the last penny." According to this, we will be set free. We could never be released from Hell, so this means there must be some other
form of punishment that is not final -- Purgatory.
Matthew 12:32 -- And whoever speaks a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.
Jesus explicitly mentions that speaking against the Holy Spirit is a sin unforgivable in "this world or the next". This implies that there is such a thing as forgiveness after death. Forgiveness in Heaven is unnecessary, and there can be no forgiveness in Hell -- a third place must then exist. We call this Purgatory.
Papal Infallibility
This is often misunderstood. The Church does not teach that the Pope is never wrong no matter what -- simply that he reserves the right to present a Church dogma infallibly; that is, if the Pope decides something will be taught as Church dogma (which very rarely happens), he can claim infallibility on the subject. For more information, check out this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility#Conditions_for_papal_infallibility
Intercessory Prayer
First, we don't call this "praying to dead people". Technically, we aren't praying "to" them at all. All we are doing is requesting that these people, whom we believe to be in Heaven, pray for us. Since they are not on Earth, we cannot ask them directly -- we do so in the form of "prayer". It is no different than you asking your wife to pray for you. Since we believe these people to already be in Heaven, they have an "in" with God (Mary especially, who is the mother of God [she is the mother of Christ and Christ is God, therefore she is the mother of God]). I can find scriptural backing for this, but you believe in the power of intercessory prayer already, do you not? I will post verses later if you still want me to.
Priest Celibacy
The Catholic Church doesn't actually require that anyone give up marriage, as no one is required to join the Priesthood -- those that do do so willingly, knowing full well that they shall have to give up marriage. As Jesus says in Matthew 19:12 -- For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."
We believe that Jesus himself was unmarried, so living a celibate life is not unprecedented. The Priests remain celibate so that they can devote their entire lives to the Church. Since no one is required to become a Priest, only those who feel called should do so. "The one who can accept this should accept it."
Contraception
The purpose of sex is procreation. When we use contraception, we are in direct defiance of that. We are permitted to engage in sexual relations only during times of infertility, but to use artificial means of contraception is to take the fate of our family and our children into our own hands, when it rightfully belongs in the hands of God. MrJim and I discussed this earlier -- he mentioned a passage that said something to the effect of, "it is better
to plant your seed in the belly of a whore than to spill it upon the ground." I told him this simply meant that you should only have sex if you are willing to have children, and one cannot possibly have children if you use artificial contraception. In this passage, you should only be having sex with a whore if you are prepared to have a child with her -- if this is the case, you should not "pull out" (the only form of contraception back then) to be spared the prospect of children.
Sorry, I'm getting really tired. I'll look up some actual verses tomorrow.
Infant Baptism
Mark 10:13-14 -- People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
In what way can Jesus continue to touch infants (Wally, I swear, if you make one obscene reference about this you will officially be the sickest person in the world) now that He is in Heaven except through Baptism? Do not keep your children from Jesus, bring them to him. The Greek word for children (paidia) meant "babes in arms". These were infants that were being brought to Jesus.
Furthermore, there are several instances of entire households being Baptized with no exceptions:
Acts 11:14
Acts 16:15,33
1 Corinthians 1:16
Beyond that, the Greek word for "household" is "oikon", which refers to everyone that lives in the household, including slaves, servants, infants and children.
Latin Services
The original books of the New Testament were written in Greek, but were translated into Latin when that became the common language of Rome. Masses were then said in Latin. Masses continued to be said in Latin afterwards both as tradition and as a way of staying as true to the original texts as possible. Eventually, the Church realized that not everyone (few people, actually) understood what was being said and that they needed to understand, so it ordered that masses be said in the official language of the area. Since Latin masses are no longer the norm, I don't even know why you would bring this up -- except to take another jab at the Church, of course.
Holy Water
Numbers 5:17 -- Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water.
Holy water is explicitly mentioned here -- what more proof do you need?
Prayer Beads
Prayer beads are found in many religions. I assume you are referring to the Rosary, here. The Rosary is simply a tool that we use to keep track of our repetitious prayers. Now, I know you're going to have a problem with that, so I'll cover it here, too.
Matthew 26:44 -- So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.
Jesus prayed repetitively in the garden of Gethsemane -- it even says He prayed "the same thing". The problem, then, isn't the repetition -- it is the cause of the repetition. If our hearts are pure, praying repetitively gives credit to our faith and shows our devotion. If saying more than one of the same prayer was wrong, why did Jesus himself do it?
Transubstantiation
John 6:52-56 -- Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.
You can't get more explicit than that. Real food and real drink -- not metaphorical food and metaphorical drink.
Reconciliation
John 20:22-23 -- And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
Matthew 9:2-8 -- Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven." At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, "This fellow is blaspheming!" Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, "Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'? But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...." Then he said to the paralytic, "Get up, take your mat and go home." And the man got up and went home. When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to men.
Matthew 16:17-19 -- Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
You get the point.
Catholic Tradition
The Catholic Church is steeped in tradition. Is this a bad thing? Of course not. What traditions of ours go against what is in the Bible? None of them. Either they are supported by the Bible, or the Bible makes no mention of them at all. A lot of things are condemned in the Bible so that we may know exactly what we should do. No Catholic traditions are condemned in the Bible, either explicitly or implicitly. Therefore, tradition is not a bad thing and allows for every Catholic church in the world to hold Mass the same way -- something that no Protestant church has.
Indulgences
I myself am not completely clear on what indulgences are or how they work, and I'm way too tired to tackle this one tonight. Here is some reading material on the subject (I myself will read it tomorrow):
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm
A Catholic Reformation?
No. It will never happen. Why? Because the Church has no reason to reform. Everything it teaches can be supported by scripture. Furthermore, the Catholic Church has had God's blessing from the beginning: "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it." Peter was the first Pope. The New Testament writers were the first Catholics. Catholics were the first Christians. If anybody knows how the Bible is supposed to be read, it's us. We were there first.
***
I know that's a lot, and I know it was probably futile, but I figured it would be a good exercise for me. Admittedly, I didn't look up scriptural passages for everything, and he'll probably ask for them. I was just really tired when I did this, and it gets really hard to look up scriptural evidence for everything you believe at 5:00am.
I also am still unclear on indulgences. I'll have to look into that tomorrow.
Read all of this and leave me comments! Add to it, tell me I'm wrong, whatever. I just want to know what you people think about it. I worked pretty hard on this.
I have been doing just that recently. I would like to share my most recent triumphs (he certainly doesn't see them that way, but, ah, whatever).
First, we were arguing about whether we are saved by faith and works or by faith alone. I claim that we are saved by both faith and works. What is my reasoning behind this?
James 2:24 -- See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
At first glance, this scripture means little. So what if we are justified by good works? That just means that we are proving that we're good people, right? Wrong. Allow me to explain why.
Justification, from the Greek δικαιοω (dikaioō), "to declare/make righteous". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justifi...%28theology%29
The original Greek word that was used meant "to make righteous". We are therefore made righteous by our works and not by our faith alone. "Righteous" means "free from guilt or sin". So by being "made righteous", we are being made free of guilt, which is what we have after committing sin.
Matthew 13:49-50 -- This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
The word "righteous" is used extensively in the Bible, but this passage sums it up rather nicely.
In order to be righteous, we must have good works. In order to be saved by grace, we must have faith. Therefore, we are saved by grace through faith justified by works. Remove any part of the chain and the entire thing fails.
I even went on to explain why he was misinterpreting the word "justify":
The Bible was first translated into Latin (called the Vulgate) by St. Jerome around 400 AD. The Greek word would then have been translated into "justus", meaning "upright, just", or "justificare" -- which was derived from "justus" -- meaning "to forgive". This word would have adopted the meaning of the original Greek word at that time. Eventually, the English version would use the word "justify", which was derived from the Latin word "justificare". The word "justify" would retain the old Greek definition (as you can see by looking it up), but would also take on a more common use, which would later be seen to confuse Protestants everywhere.
As of yet, he has not responded to this argument. The only way he possibly can is if he makes his original claim, and the only way he can do that is by completely ignoring everything I said.
Anyway, he has since given me this list of "unfounded" Catholic teachings:
-Purgatory
-Pope infallibility
-Praying to dead people instead of God (Mary, Saints)
-Priest celibacy
-Birth control
-Baptizing babies
-Holding church services in a language few can understand
-Holy water
-Prayer Beads
-Transubstantiation
-Confession of sins to a priest
-Holding that tradition is of equal authority with the Bible
-Indulgences
...to which I replied with this:
***
Purgatory
Matthew 5:25-6: Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way to court with him. Otherwise your opponent will hand you over to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison. Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.
The judge here is God. This can be seen from the previous verses, where Jesus mentions that "whoever is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment", and only God the father can cast judgment. He makes no mention of you handing your "opponent" over to the judge -- only the reverse. This suggests that your opponent either cannot be judged or has already been judged. We know that none can escape judgment, so it must be the latter. The word "opponent"
is used elsewhere (1 Peter 5:8) in reference to Satan. Satan has already been judged, so this translation for the word "opponent" makes sense. So now, if we take judge to mean "God" and opponent to mean "Satan", if we do not settle with Satan before judgment, we will be "thrown into prison...until you have paid the last penny." According to this, we will be set free. We could never be released from Hell, so this means there must be some other
form of punishment that is not final -- Purgatory.
Matthew 12:32 -- And whoever speaks a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.
Jesus explicitly mentions that speaking against the Holy Spirit is a sin unforgivable in "this world or the next". This implies that there is such a thing as forgiveness after death. Forgiveness in Heaven is unnecessary, and there can be no forgiveness in Hell -- a third place must then exist. We call this Purgatory.
Papal Infallibility
This is often misunderstood. The Church does not teach that the Pope is never wrong no matter what -- simply that he reserves the right to present a Church dogma infallibly; that is, if the Pope decides something will be taught as Church dogma (which very rarely happens), he can claim infallibility on the subject. For more information, check out this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility#Conditions_for_papal_infallibility
Intercessory Prayer
First, we don't call this "praying to dead people". Technically, we aren't praying "to" them at all. All we are doing is requesting that these people, whom we believe to be in Heaven, pray for us. Since they are not on Earth, we cannot ask them directly -- we do so in the form of "prayer". It is no different than you asking your wife to pray for you. Since we believe these people to already be in Heaven, they have an "in" with God (Mary especially, who is the mother of God [she is the mother of Christ and Christ is God, therefore she is the mother of God]). I can find scriptural backing for this, but you believe in the power of intercessory prayer already, do you not? I will post verses later if you still want me to.
Priest Celibacy
The Catholic Church doesn't actually require that anyone give up marriage, as no one is required to join the Priesthood -- those that do do so willingly, knowing full well that they shall have to give up marriage. As Jesus says in Matthew 19:12 -- For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."
We believe that Jesus himself was unmarried, so living a celibate life is not unprecedented. The Priests remain celibate so that they can devote their entire lives to the Church. Since no one is required to become a Priest, only those who feel called should do so. "The one who can accept this should accept it."
Contraception
The purpose of sex is procreation. When we use contraception, we are in direct defiance of that. We are permitted to engage in sexual relations only during times of infertility, but to use artificial means of contraception is to take the fate of our family and our children into our own hands, when it rightfully belongs in the hands of God. MrJim and I discussed this earlier -- he mentioned a passage that said something to the effect of, "it is better
to plant your seed in the belly of a whore than to spill it upon the ground." I told him this simply meant that you should only have sex if you are willing to have children, and one cannot possibly have children if you use artificial contraception. In this passage, you should only be having sex with a whore if you are prepared to have a child with her -- if this is the case, you should not "pull out" (the only form of contraception back then) to be spared the prospect of children.
Sorry, I'm getting really tired. I'll look up some actual verses tomorrow.
Infant Baptism
Mark 10:13-14 -- People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
In what way can Jesus continue to touch infants (Wally, I swear, if you make one obscene reference about this you will officially be the sickest person in the world) now that He is in Heaven except through Baptism? Do not keep your children from Jesus, bring them to him. The Greek word for children (paidia) meant "babes in arms". These were infants that were being brought to Jesus.
Furthermore, there are several instances of entire households being Baptized with no exceptions:
Acts 11:14
Acts 16:15,33
1 Corinthians 1:16
Beyond that, the Greek word for "household" is "oikon", which refers to everyone that lives in the household, including slaves, servants, infants and children.
Latin Services
The original books of the New Testament were written in Greek, but were translated into Latin when that became the common language of Rome. Masses were then said in Latin. Masses continued to be said in Latin afterwards both as tradition and as a way of staying as true to the original texts as possible. Eventually, the Church realized that not everyone (few people, actually) understood what was being said and that they needed to understand, so it ordered that masses be said in the official language of the area. Since Latin masses are no longer the norm, I don't even know why you would bring this up -- except to take another jab at the Church, of course.
Holy Water
Numbers 5:17 -- Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water.
Holy water is explicitly mentioned here -- what more proof do you need?
Prayer Beads
Prayer beads are found in many religions. I assume you are referring to the Rosary, here. The Rosary is simply a tool that we use to keep track of our repetitious prayers. Now, I know you're going to have a problem with that, so I'll cover it here, too.
Matthew 26:44 -- So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.
Jesus prayed repetitively in the garden of Gethsemane -- it even says He prayed "the same thing". The problem, then, isn't the repetition -- it is the cause of the repetition. If our hearts are pure, praying repetitively gives credit to our faith and shows our devotion. If saying more than one of the same prayer was wrong, why did Jesus himself do it?
Transubstantiation
John 6:52-56 -- Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.
You can't get more explicit than that. Real food and real drink -- not metaphorical food and metaphorical drink.
Reconciliation
John 20:22-23 -- And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
Matthew 9:2-8 -- Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven." At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, "This fellow is blaspheming!" Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, "Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'? But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...." Then he said to the paralytic, "Get up, take your mat and go home." And the man got up and went home. When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to men.
Matthew 16:17-19 -- Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
You get the point.
Catholic Tradition
The Catholic Church is steeped in tradition. Is this a bad thing? Of course not. What traditions of ours go against what is in the Bible? None of them. Either they are supported by the Bible, or the Bible makes no mention of them at all. A lot of things are condemned in the Bible so that we may know exactly what we should do. No Catholic traditions are condemned in the Bible, either explicitly or implicitly. Therefore, tradition is not a bad thing and allows for every Catholic church in the world to hold Mass the same way -- something that no Protestant church has.
Indulgences
I myself am not completely clear on what indulgences are or how they work, and I'm way too tired to tackle this one tonight. Here is some reading material on the subject (I myself will read it tomorrow):
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm
A Catholic Reformation?
No. It will never happen. Why? Because the Church has no reason to reform. Everything it teaches can be supported by scripture. Furthermore, the Catholic Church has had God's blessing from the beginning: "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it." Peter was the first Pope. The New Testament writers were the first Catholics. Catholics were the first Christians. If anybody knows how the Bible is supposed to be read, it's us. We were there first.
***
I know that's a lot, and I know it was probably futile, but I figured it would be a good exercise for me. Admittedly, I didn't look up scriptural passages for everything, and he'll probably ask for them. I was just really tired when I did this, and it gets really hard to look up scriptural evidence for everything you believe at 5:00am.
I also am still unclear on indulgences. I'll have to look into that tomorrow.
Read all of this and leave me comments! Add to it, tell me I'm wrong, whatever. I just want to know what you people think about it. I worked pretty hard on this.