Captain America: Civil War
I SAW CIVIL WAR YOU GUYS
I AM SO RELIEVED. SO SO SO RELIEVED
I don’t think I’ve talked about it much here? But I have basically been freaking out about what would happen with Natasha for six months. More, really. I adore Natasha in every film except Ultron. I didn’t hate her there, she just felt… not right, to me. Maybe I’d feel differently if I watched it again; I only watched it once and it was a shock to see her ~soothing the savage beast and all that. Ultron really shook my faith in the franchise, basically. And because civil rights are like, the political issue that brought me out to my first protest when I was a wee Lokifan, and the question of accountability and power in superhero films is such a big thing, and Natasha is a hero but she’s also a SHIELD agent as-was, and she was on Tony’s side argh oh God please don’t make me hate her or ignore how fundamentally the Civil War conflict gets at Natasha’s core traits…
OH NATASHA I ADORE YOU ♥ I need to do a rewatch pretty soon, with an eye to Natasha’s arc, and also to read meta. I can’t rewatch Civil War itself for a tragically long time because of the whole living in Italy business. In Vietnam they just subtitle it so if you’re an English speaker you can ignore the subtitles; here I got to do that tonight but it was a one-off showing, usually they dub.
So I need to think over Natasha’s whole arc. But basically I LOVED IT.
I loved that she was so central - I was really worried she’d get brushed over or dismissed, despite having the closest relationship with Steve of any Avenger but Sam. Because on a personal level, her and Steve being on opposite sides is a much bigger deal than Tony and Steve. And I loved her uncertainty, and that her fuck-you to government oversight - and corruption, ie Hydra - at the close of Cap 2 wasn’t ignored. But it also felt right to me after all; Natasha is a realist, and someone who’s made an art of finding agency within a larger controlling machine. She also showed such loyalty to the Avengers itself, as a group, and I found that incredibly poignant. I suspect after the Red Room, and then SHIELD turning out to be corrupted from within - she had a wavering moment during Ultron (WHY, I need to rewatch because I don’t understand that Natasha) but she stayed while Bruce left and yeah. She wants and needs the group, and its moral centre.
And her moment with Clint OMG I LOVED IT. That wry sense of humour, and the reaching out for reassurance about their friendship. It also felt very real that the spies (as opposed to soldiers or those who became fighters as superheroes) would find the ability to be a bit more distant and chill about battling physically.
ALSO CHALK UP ANOTHER INTENSELY COOL NATASHA MOTORBIKE STUNT. I CAN’T HANDLE ANY OF THIS.
And the end! YES. She’s a realist who wants to keep the group together so yeah, at that moment she lets them go rather than risk more in-group fighting and awful injury - and I think she can’t stand to fight them any more when she’s not sure what’s right. On one level I really wish she’d been around for the final act, but on another that was the perfect climax for her story, and my girl coming out right. And also the final fight couldn’t have any cooler heads prevailing, and there aren’t many heads cooler than Natasha’s.
(Also: Natasha’s hair! ♥)
Also fuck, Tony, that line about double agent stuff being in her DNA… I actually have all the sympathy in the world for Tony in this film and that situation, and I like that it subtly called back to Natasha’s introduction as Natalie in Iron Man 2, but OUCH. I think that barb’s going to stick far longer than he knows.
Fucking hell, Rhodey. God that was awful. At least we saw Tony building him… walking trousers? IDK. (I must dig up that
copperbadge Explains Comics post with the conversation about Tony making Walking Pants for Professor X.) But omg. Poor poor Rhodey. Seriously, when he was falling and I saw him hit the ground, I was just repeating “they wouldn’t kill him in Steve’s movie they wouldn’t kill him in Steve’s movie” to myself. I adore him and it was great to see his friendship with Tony on show - fighting in sync, “my Rhodey” and the scene at the end.
Wanda and Vision was pretty great as well. Clint’s screentime was brief but effective. Acknowledging my massive Natasha partisanship, Sam for me was the Man of the Match. (MVP in American, I think? Unclear what that is though.) He was so delightful! His grin at Steve getting a kiss, his conversation with Tony in prison, all his little one-liners. SAM. (Also because am shallow, at one point he was on his back having got smacked down and all I could think was ANTHONY MACKIE EYELASHES, MY GOD.)
Tony was intensely sympathetic. I was surprised at quite how sympathetic he was, actually; I should’ve given the Russos more credit perhaps but there was a lot of focus on how torn he is from the beginning, how he doesn’t get out the Iron Man suit until pushed really far, and how fucked up he is by Ultron, by Pepper leaving, by the mother at MIT. As opposed to Steve - quite possibly we’re just supposed to assume Steve is right, but for his movie he didn’t get a lot of the typical beats. There was a point at the climax where he paused, and I was waiting for him to start doing the “Tony, stop!” between blows thing, and give an inspiring speech, and nope instead he beat Tony down. Which was pretty great to see, honestly, I found this movie unpredictable which is a bloody miracle - but wow. Yeah. A friend of mine after Cap 2 said she thought Cap films would probably generally be downers, but WOW.
This gives me hope for Avengers 3, though. I was one of many who was disappointed that Ultron opened with the Avengers together and a well-oiled machine, having hoped for the becoming-a-team story. I’ll certainly take an option on rebecoming-a-team for 3.
Speaking of the central conflict - the sterling attempt to keep everyone sympathetic worked for me. I was a bit ARGH with the fight at the end - HE TOLD YOU HIS EVIL PLAN AND NOW YOU ARE DOING IT!!! - but they’re all at the end of their ropes, Tony just watched his parents’ murder on video, I could hope for more but it is understandable. Also Tony’s specific reference to Maria, and that she’s who he invokes as why he’s going to smash Bucky’s face, and us finally getting to see her on film, I’m THRILLED. (Although blonde and WASPy, boo. Given various canon things about Howard I had a strong headcanon for New York Italian.)
I’ve said for a while that I have no side in Civil War - that it’d depend on how the argument was laid out in its details. As things turn out, I’m on Tony’s side. Which is… surprising to me. But I believe in accountability for law enforcement and for soldiers and for intelligence agencies, and the Avengers come under one of those headings; I think the UN is an appropriate choice given the givens; and honestly all the “ugh, politics” from Steve and our Wakandan king made me a little annoyed. Politics and compromise are IMPORTANT. Compromise where you can, a la Peggy, and all this “two people in a room can get more done than a hundred” - right, because consensus is hard! That doesn’t make it unimportant! This is how we get things done, because it’s better than all the other ways. Americans imagine democracy to be inextricably linked to the concept of the USA - that is democracy, a hundred people in a room fighting it out and working it out. And actually having oversight combined with some of the Avengers’ own judgement - Natasha’s “one hand on the wheel” - strikes me as the best option.
Yeah, so Steve’s anti-Accord thing struck me as kinda stupid. He could have talked about corruption a la Hydra, or being held responsible for collateral damage inflicted by other people, or how all the Avengers did in Sovakia was try to rescue civilians, but instead made arguments I have no sympathy for. Which is a bit disappointing but I’m not infuriated or anything.
Oh, re: Steve - WHAT WAS THAT KISS. IDEK.
Steve’s stuff re: Bucky made way more sense to me. I thought Tony’s switch when he found out about that villain was interesting - okay, so he thought Steve’s wild story was crazy and I guess had more sympathy for Steve fighting the police, but they were fighting about other real stuff before that? Again I need to rewatch but I suspect he wanted to fight the real bad guy but also was just looking for an excuse to be on Steve’s side again and heal the breach. Until the reveal. And Steve not telling him is interesting.
Bucky was very sympathetic! I may even be starting to care about him on his own merits now, rather than purely in relation to Natasha and Steve. “I remember all of them” aww. Very, very Angel hahaha. He’s much less culpable! But yeah. Which I suppose makes Steve Buffy, and I don’t even ship them - blonde heroic type who will save brooding puppy-eye dude with a dark past.
Ant-man, uggggggggh. STOP IT WHY ARE YOU HERE. Spiderman still needs to be Miles Morales but he had a very teenage one-liners energy, very appropriate, and Tony in that dingy bedroom was hilarious. Aging down Aunt May is fucked up and sexist and ageist, obviously. Ugh. Also I love that based on his answers to Steve, Peter didn’t have a fucking clue what was going on and was just wowed by Tony’s speech without engaging critical thinking. It was very, very teenage idealist. He wants to help and will take enormous risks, but not so much with the considering complexity.
Black Panther was very, very well acted and written. Not one of the standouts of the film for me, but I’m a very hard sell on You Killed My Father, Prepare to Die; I’m looking forward to his solo outing a lot, though. And also, T’Challa/Natasha? Way, way more here for that than Bruce/Natasha even if Steve/Natasha tops my list.
Well that was 1800 words of opinions. Disagreement welcome as always, btw. I am much nicer about real people who disagree with me than superheroes :D
This was originally posted at http://lokifan.dreamwidth.org/340317.html. Comment wherever you like :)
I AM SO RELIEVED. SO SO SO RELIEVED
I don’t think I’ve talked about it much here? But I have basically been freaking out about what would happen with Natasha for six months. More, really. I adore Natasha in every film except Ultron. I didn’t hate her there, she just felt… not right, to me. Maybe I’d feel differently if I watched it again; I only watched it once and it was a shock to see her ~soothing the savage beast and all that. Ultron really shook my faith in the franchise, basically. And because civil rights are like, the political issue that brought me out to my first protest when I was a wee Lokifan, and the question of accountability and power in superhero films is such a big thing, and Natasha is a hero but she’s also a SHIELD agent as-was, and she was on Tony’s side argh oh God please don’t make me hate her or ignore how fundamentally the Civil War conflict gets at Natasha’s core traits…
OH NATASHA I ADORE YOU ♥ I need to do a rewatch pretty soon, with an eye to Natasha’s arc, and also to read meta. I can’t rewatch Civil War itself for a tragically long time because of the whole living in Italy business. In Vietnam they just subtitle it so if you’re an English speaker you can ignore the subtitles; here I got to do that tonight but it was a one-off showing, usually they dub.
So I need to think over Natasha’s whole arc. But basically I LOVED IT.
I loved that she was so central - I was really worried she’d get brushed over or dismissed, despite having the closest relationship with Steve of any Avenger but Sam. Because on a personal level, her and Steve being on opposite sides is a much bigger deal than Tony and Steve. And I loved her uncertainty, and that her fuck-you to government oversight - and corruption, ie Hydra - at the close of Cap 2 wasn’t ignored. But it also felt right to me after all; Natasha is a realist, and someone who’s made an art of finding agency within a larger controlling machine. She also showed such loyalty to the Avengers itself, as a group, and I found that incredibly poignant. I suspect after the Red Room, and then SHIELD turning out to be corrupted from within - she had a wavering moment during Ultron (WHY, I need to rewatch because I don’t understand that Natasha) but she stayed while Bruce left and yeah. She wants and needs the group, and its moral centre.
And her moment with Clint OMG I LOVED IT. That wry sense of humour, and the reaching out for reassurance about their friendship. It also felt very real that the spies (as opposed to soldiers or those who became fighters as superheroes) would find the ability to be a bit more distant and chill about battling physically.
ALSO CHALK UP ANOTHER INTENSELY COOL NATASHA MOTORBIKE STUNT. I CAN’T HANDLE ANY OF THIS.
And the end! YES. She’s a realist who wants to keep the group together so yeah, at that moment she lets them go rather than risk more in-group fighting and awful injury - and I think she can’t stand to fight them any more when she’s not sure what’s right. On one level I really wish she’d been around for the final act, but on another that was the perfect climax for her story, and my girl coming out right. And also the final fight couldn’t have any cooler heads prevailing, and there aren’t many heads cooler than Natasha’s.
(Also: Natasha’s hair! ♥)
Also fuck, Tony, that line about double agent stuff being in her DNA… I actually have all the sympathy in the world for Tony in this film and that situation, and I like that it subtly called back to Natasha’s introduction as Natalie in Iron Man 2, but OUCH. I think that barb’s going to stick far longer than he knows.
Fucking hell, Rhodey. God that was awful. At least we saw Tony building him… walking trousers? IDK. (I must dig up that
copperbadge Explains Comics post with the conversation about Tony making Walking Pants for Professor X.) But omg. Poor poor Rhodey. Seriously, when he was falling and I saw him hit the ground, I was just repeating “they wouldn’t kill him in Steve’s movie they wouldn’t kill him in Steve’s movie” to myself. I adore him and it was great to see his friendship with Tony on show - fighting in sync, “my Rhodey” and the scene at the end.
Wanda and Vision was pretty great as well. Clint’s screentime was brief but effective. Acknowledging my massive Natasha partisanship, Sam for me was the Man of the Match. (MVP in American, I think? Unclear what that is though.) He was so delightful! His grin at Steve getting a kiss, his conversation with Tony in prison, all his little one-liners. SAM. (Also because am shallow, at one point he was on his back having got smacked down and all I could think was ANTHONY MACKIE EYELASHES, MY GOD.)
Tony was intensely sympathetic. I was surprised at quite how sympathetic he was, actually; I should’ve given the Russos more credit perhaps but there was a lot of focus on how torn he is from the beginning, how he doesn’t get out the Iron Man suit until pushed really far, and how fucked up he is by Ultron, by Pepper leaving, by the mother at MIT. As opposed to Steve - quite possibly we’re just supposed to assume Steve is right, but for his movie he didn’t get a lot of the typical beats. There was a point at the climax where he paused, and I was waiting for him to start doing the “Tony, stop!” between blows thing, and give an inspiring speech, and nope instead he beat Tony down. Which was pretty great to see, honestly, I found this movie unpredictable which is a bloody miracle - but wow. Yeah. A friend of mine after Cap 2 said she thought Cap films would probably generally be downers, but WOW.
This gives me hope for Avengers 3, though. I was one of many who was disappointed that Ultron opened with the Avengers together and a well-oiled machine, having hoped for the becoming-a-team story. I’ll certainly take an option on rebecoming-a-team for 3.
Speaking of the central conflict - the sterling attempt to keep everyone sympathetic worked for me. I was a bit ARGH with the fight at the end - HE TOLD YOU HIS EVIL PLAN AND NOW YOU ARE DOING IT!!! - but they’re all at the end of their ropes, Tony just watched his parents’ murder on video, I could hope for more but it is understandable. Also Tony’s specific reference to Maria, and that she’s who he invokes as why he’s going to smash Bucky’s face, and us finally getting to see her on film, I’m THRILLED. (Although blonde and WASPy, boo. Given various canon things about Howard I had a strong headcanon for New York Italian.)
I’ve said for a while that I have no side in Civil War - that it’d depend on how the argument was laid out in its details. As things turn out, I’m on Tony’s side. Which is… surprising to me. But I believe in accountability for law enforcement and for soldiers and for intelligence agencies, and the Avengers come under one of those headings; I think the UN is an appropriate choice given the givens; and honestly all the “ugh, politics” from Steve and our Wakandan king made me a little annoyed. Politics and compromise are IMPORTANT. Compromise where you can, a la Peggy, and all this “two people in a room can get more done than a hundred” - right, because consensus is hard! That doesn’t make it unimportant! This is how we get things done, because it’s better than all the other ways. Americans imagine democracy to be inextricably linked to the concept of the USA - that is democracy, a hundred people in a room fighting it out and working it out. And actually having oversight combined with some of the Avengers’ own judgement - Natasha’s “one hand on the wheel” - strikes me as the best option.
Yeah, so Steve’s anti-Accord thing struck me as kinda stupid. He could have talked about corruption a la Hydra, or being held responsible for collateral damage inflicted by other people, or how all the Avengers did in Sovakia was try to rescue civilians, but instead made arguments I have no sympathy for. Which is a bit disappointing but I’m not infuriated or anything.
Oh, re: Steve - WHAT WAS THAT KISS. IDEK.
Steve’s stuff re: Bucky made way more sense to me. I thought Tony’s switch when he found out about that villain was interesting - okay, so he thought Steve’s wild story was crazy and I guess had more sympathy for Steve fighting the police, but they were fighting about other real stuff before that? Again I need to rewatch but I suspect he wanted to fight the real bad guy but also was just looking for an excuse to be on Steve’s side again and heal the breach. Until the reveal. And Steve not telling him is interesting.
Bucky was very sympathetic! I may even be starting to care about him on his own merits now, rather than purely in relation to Natasha and Steve. “I remember all of them” aww. Very, very Angel hahaha. He’s much less culpable! But yeah. Which I suppose makes Steve Buffy, and I don’t even ship them - blonde heroic type who will save brooding puppy-eye dude with a dark past.
Ant-man, uggggggggh. STOP IT WHY ARE YOU HERE. Spiderman still needs to be Miles Morales but he had a very teenage one-liners energy, very appropriate, and Tony in that dingy bedroom was hilarious. Aging down Aunt May is fucked up and sexist and ageist, obviously. Ugh. Also I love that based on his answers to Steve, Peter didn’t have a fucking clue what was going on and was just wowed by Tony’s speech without engaging critical thinking. It was very, very teenage idealist. He wants to help and will take enormous risks, but not so much with the considering complexity.
Black Panther was very, very well acted and written. Not one of the standouts of the film for me, but I’m a very hard sell on You Killed My Father, Prepare to Die; I’m looking forward to his solo outing a lot, though. And also, T’Challa/Natasha? Way, way more here for that than Bruce/Natasha even if Steve/Natasha tops my list.
Well that was 1800 words of opinions. Disagreement welcome as always, btw. I am much nicer about real people who disagree with me than superheroes :D
This was originally posted at http://lokifan.dreamwidth.org/340317.html. Comment wherever you like :)