* On the one hand, you should never accept piss-poor behaviour. * On the other hand, you should forgive people their screw-ups.
I think both are completely subjective to how much you like someone. If you've met someone who you feel a deep connection with, and totally adore? You can forgive the occasional screw up- because honestly, on the whole- they just don't bother you that much. On the other side of the spectrum if you really don't like someone that much? Those little things are far more annoying and far less worth putting up with. If things like someone flaking, and giving you what was a less than acceptable explanation get to you? It's probably because she isn't the right person. If she was? Her explanation would sit better with you- at least in a broad sense of things.
It's an entire psychological theory on relationships, clearly that isn't the technical wordage at play- but I think you get the gist :-p.
I'll agree with that. One is more forgiving with someone when that person means more to them than someone else. And no worries, I get the gist and concur.
I think that if it were someone else, I might not have even spoken to them again. Different people muster and give different reactions.
i hate to be in proximity to someone who remembers and recites follies, and stands at her pedestal doling out forgiveness (and is apt to add that bit as well).
She only did so under unexpected pressure. And its not a pedestal if you ask only for equal treatment. Have/had a bf/gf? I'm too nice to them and with me they get away with waaaay too much (aka cheating) but you have to give them a little credit or you'll have a relationship based on suspicion and revenge. And I'm pretty sure that only works on TV.
Honestly what she did would piss me off too but his stuff is still a variable so . . . my brother's the mathematician, not me. In any case if she forgave a violation of her values by him . . . he kinda owes her. And even in absence of that its a friendship not a negotiation.
i hate to beat a dead horse because it's dead and all...gennesisSeptember 8 2008, 09:05:48 UTC
there that is! the idea that if you make plans with someone and that person flakes, it's all right. i've one query: in any degree of kinship i share, the expectation that if one makes plans with me, i'd like to be notified if they're not going to make it. even if i am at the designated spot and i had been waiting, it's never too late for an answer--and sure i'll be angry but the courtesy is necessary, yes? especially with the advent and convenience of everyone owning a cell phone. these factors accepted
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Re: i hate to beat a dead horse because it's dead and all...lokiSeptember 8 2008, 12:13:09 UTC
Here's the line that caught my eye:
But here's the thing: after all was said and done, she pointed out one time that I showed piss-poor behaviour. And she said she forgave me.
Her behavior is not justifiable, at all. Just because you did it once, and she forgave you, does not give her a get out of jail free card. Two wrongs do not make a right, and all that jazz.
Also, you can't just expect forgiveness to catch your mistakes like a safety net. If you aren't genuinely contrite for said behavior (and her saying this is how she and friends are, she's obviously not) then it's completely meaningless. An excuse and a justification for actions is all it was.
Re: i hate to beat a dead horse because it's dead and all...arankaSeptember 8 2008, 14:25:27 UTC
But loki . . . then she shouldn't have forgiven him in the first place . . . it cuts both ways. I accept the possibility that they are too different to operate together, but this isn't the excuse to throw her out. The behavior is based on her own set of values, the rationalization in the face of questioning led to Logan's previous mistake with her. If its values we're looking at then yes, perhaps a split is in order. If its forgiveness . . . he hasn't told us what he did . . . it might be just as bad or worse. Friends/lovers/whatever she is to him deserve a little better than to be thrown out for a mistake. No one's perfect. We all screw up. He screwed up, she screwed up . . . it happens.
Basically what I'm saying is if you demand perfection from your friends, especially when you don't demand it from yourself, you're going to be a very lonely person.
Re: i hate to beat a dead horse because it's dead and all...lokiSeptember 8 2008, 14:34:02 UTC
Taking this case in a vacuum: it doesn't matter if she forgave him before, and it doesn't matter what he did before.
By her own values, if she and her friends have this behavior as a social norm (bailing without communication), then why does she EXPECT forgiveness, even demand it? Because she realizes by his values she did wrong. But she doesn't ask for forgiveness. That's the failing in my book right there.
I don't expect perfection from any of my friends, but I do expect that we'll all make mistakes. Forgiveness is a given sure, but admit your mistakes. In Logan's case, she's sending mixed signals....
You've brought up a topic of enormous interest for me: forgiveness. I choose to believe it is a different concept than what contemporary society seems to believe. For me, it's not about "excusing" hurtful actions or behavior, it's not about dismissing poor behavior, it's not about matching one-for-one times you hurt each other. Those are just ways to encourage abuse
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bound on earth will be held bound in heaven and what we loose on earth will be loosed in heaven - that's one of my favorite lines. It's in a song I've been listening to call the Thin Blue Line - but I've not thought of how it relates to forgiveness.
I said it before, I'm always appreciative of your thoughtful comments.
I've not heard of that Institute - but it certainly looks interesting.
Well, there's def. things (both good and bad) that I've not mentioned. Still, it's been on my mind when I interact with her; but I told her I wouldn't bring it up again if it didn't happen again and she said it wouldn't. I'm hoping that's true.
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* On the other hand, you should forgive people their screw-ups.
I think both are completely subjective to how much you like someone. If you've met someone who you feel a deep connection with, and totally adore? You can forgive the occasional screw up- because honestly, on the whole- they just don't bother you that much. On the other side of the spectrum if you really don't like someone that much? Those little things are far more annoying and far less worth putting up with. If things like someone flaking, and giving you what was a less than acceptable explanation get to you? It's probably because she isn't the right person. If she was? Her explanation would sit better with you- at least in a broad sense of things.
It's an entire psychological theory on relationships, clearly that isn't the technical wordage at play- but I think you get the gist :-p.
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I think that if it were someone else, I might not have even spoken to them again. Different people muster and give different reactions.
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Honestly what she did would piss me off too but his stuff is still a variable so . . . my brother's the mathematician, not me. In any case if she forgave a violation of her values by him . . . he kinda owes her. And even in absence of that its a friendship not a negotiation.
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It is difficult, I'll grant you that, but I have to say that friendships are negotiations; without them, the friendship has no value.
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But here's the thing: after all was said and done, she pointed out one time that I showed piss-poor behaviour. And she said she forgave me.
Her behavior is not justifiable, at all. Just because you did it once, and she forgave you, does not give her a get out of jail free card. Two wrongs do not make a right, and all that jazz.
Also, you can't just expect forgiveness to catch your mistakes like a safety net. If you aren't genuinely contrite for said behavior (and her saying this is how she and friends are, she's obviously not) then it's completely meaningless. An excuse and a justification for actions is all it was.
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Basically what I'm saying is if you demand perfection from your friends, especially when you don't demand it from yourself, you're going to be a very lonely person.
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By her own values, if she and her friends have this behavior as a social norm (bailing without communication), then why does she EXPECT forgiveness, even demand it? Because she realizes by his values she did wrong. But she doesn't ask for forgiveness. That's the failing in my book right there.
I don't expect perfection from any of my friends, but I do expect that we'll all make mistakes. Forgiveness is a given sure, but admit your mistakes. In Logan's case, she's sending mixed signals....
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you're awesome.
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I said it before, I'm always appreciative of your thoughtful comments.
I've not heard of that Institute - but it certainly looks interesting.
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