Women in 2600 panel?

[c4bl3fl4m3]

So HOPE Number 6 is coming upon us again. I'm wondering if we want to do the "Women in 2600" panel again... only this time as a scheduled talk.

Is there any interest?
Would you be on the panel?
Do you have any ideas for questions to ask the panelists? (I'll eventually get a list of the ones we used at The Fifth HOPE up in ch1x0rzIf there's interest and I

Comments

[anonymous]

if you're going to do it again, be reminded that you completely discredit yourself when you do things like hang flyers in the men's room saying "LIVE HACKER GIRLZZZ!!!1!!oen". i have no respect whatsoever for the panel from 5h because of this, and the stories i heard of how it went. most of the women i know who were there thought the panel was offensive, counterproductive, and wanted to distance themselves as far away from it as they could.

honestly, i think the idea has been done to death from the "hey let's just whine about this issue and say that men are assholes who don't ever give us the chance" standpoint. maybe you should consider trying to approach it from a more academic standpoint. and when i've mentioned this in the past, it's always met with "see? you're a man and you're saying we're full of shit, this just proves our point." hiding behind that won't work forever, and i think it's not very productive because it promotes argument and nothing constructive.

for example: this talk at notacon

[c4bl3fl4m3]

Thank you for your replies, but it's hard to take you seriously when you won't even sign it with your name or handle.

(oh, and the "live hacker girls, girls,girls!" thing? that was tongue in cheek.)

[anonymous]

i'll tell you who i am if you'd like, but not in a public forum like this. i've pissed off enough people this year already, heh. i set it to be anonymous because i didn't know how you'd take this sort of criticism; i wanted this to be something constructive, not something meant to upset that would cause a black mark to hang over my head for the rest of any interactions we may have.

and i know it was tongue in cheek, but 100% of the guys i talked to who saw it rolled their eyes and said "wow, what bullshit." even the ones who knew it was meant as a joke thought it was counterproductive and chose not to go to the panel after seeing it.

[c4bl3fl4m3]

And funny you should bring that talk from Notacon up. Leigh/Hypatia was actually one of our speakers on the panel from last time

[purplefolk]

Hm, I was at HOPE 5, but not at the talk, and I agree with the anonymous poster that there was a lot of negativity surrounding it (for the reasons s/he already pointed out).

Obviously, it's true there are less female hackers than male. Why not focus on something constructive like how to interest more women in technology or something? While panels like "women's experience in the hacker scene" are valid, I'm not convinced you'd be able to override the whiny feminist aura that turns so many people (both male and female) off from whatever interesting/insightful things you may have to say.

I think the most effective way to even the scale is to just show up and be awesome. Be female/gay/albino midget and do a kick ass tech panel, for example. You'll be sending out the message more like, "yes, we're female hackers-- and we can actually hack, for fuck's sake." And (unfortunately?), you'll probably be taken more seriously this way... at least in this crowd/event.

[c4bl3fl4m3]

Thank you for your excellent feedback.

You've given me some stuff to think about, but I don't think I want to do a hard sciences panel. I don't see why we always have to do panels on the hard sciences... the soft sciences do apply to us as well, and as someone who likes tech but enjoys the soft sciences as well, I enjoy things where the 2 collide, or analyzing hard science things in soft science ways.

I'm starting to think that some people are just SO hardcore into the hard sciences that they won't be interested in it until we turn it into something like "hypersearch via 802.11g in a SQL environment" (yes, I know, that's bull. I made it up) So perhaps I'm just going to have to realize that I'm not going to be able to please everyone and present it for the people who ARE interested in social sciences in a tech setting.

"Why not focus on something constructive like how to interest more women in technology or something?"
asciilifeform and I were talking today on how there's such a lack of women in his upper level comp sci courses (and the ones

[purplefolk]

Of course the soft stuff is important as well. But in a group of ubergeeks, sometimes they won't appreciate it as much. One collision that has been sucessful is social network theory, but I feel the important thing here is rather than looking at hard sci stuff in soft sci ways, as you said, you apply scientific rigor to social phenomena. To present (convincingly) to a group of people, especially people rabid about the tech stuff, these are some things to consider.

Unfortunately, with this subject, you can probably find data to support almost any claim. There will always always always need to be more research. I admit, a soft approach is something I'd find way too aggravating to present myself because it's such an uphill battle to be taken seriously. And, if you're not careful, there's going to be backlash-- in which case you may very well end up undermining your own goals. (Not sarcastically), I wish you luck.

I don't see why we always have to do panels on the hard sciences...Just to play devil's advocate, I'm going to guess

[aut0matedalice]

i agree with the hard-sci approach to social phenomena. it would be a better sell to the hardline hackers. i also agree with the rolemodel view, leading by example is one of the best, if not the single best way to lend confidence to women and girls in hacking and sciences and inspire them to continue. which is, after all, what we wanted anyway, right? ;)

[tlttlotd]

I'd be interested in a queer-2600 panel.. it's damned hard finding family in the scene these days.

[c4bl3fl4m3]

Thank you!

What do you think we should talk about? And would you be willing to be on the panel? (and feel free to take my queer or bi pride Tux and use it. ;) )

[tlttlotd]

What I'm most curious about is how many queer folks are in the scene or related to it somehow. When I was more active when I was younger, you just didn't hear about anyone coming out or anything like that. Depending on what the subject matter turns out to be, I might be interested in sitting on the panel.

I copied the QT icon when you first posted it - I didn't think you'd mind.

[tlttlotd]

but what would you talk about on a "queer 2600 panel

[aut0matedalice]

i was one of the women who the anonymous poster mentions as having distanced myself from the HOPE5 women in hacking panel (no, i dont know who it is). my first thought on the whole idea was, shit, i thought being a hacker transcended gender boundaries and made your physical equipment pretty much not a concern. in a realm where we interact much of the time in a way where our gender is unknowable, why should it suddenly become the subject of a con panel? it seems to me to be bringing an issue up that wasnt an issue til someone decided to bring it up. the androgyny of the hacking world, where your skills are what set you apart rather than anything, ANYTHING else, is what draws me to it in the first place. same thing with the Queers panel. why is anyone's personal preference up for debate or commentary

[purplefolk]

Kudos for the first paragraph. I strongly agree that's an awesome thing about being in sciences.

[aut0matedalice]

thanks. its been my biggest problem with the "women in hacking" panel, that it highlights an issue that is not an issue, never has been and never should be. no one likes when something they cant control is set apart as a social pivot point, but why do it to yourself?

it just seems like it goes against the whole philosophy of being a hacker, the anonymity, the power you give yourself by the elimination of your defining social characteristics. its putting yourself in a box. i'm ranting. /end rant.

[purplefolk]

The only place where I can see it being a significant issue is in person, so that would make it more of a women in hacker culture thing, rather than women in hacking. But "omg boys are staring at my boobs and not my beautiful mind!" isn't exactly restricted to hacker culture.

Heh, although... we might have some advantages in the social engineering arena if you count that as social hacking. Now that would be a funny talk. :D

[ctstalker]

I saw the sign up sheet for that last time, and I, personally, would never sign up for a talk like that. Too me it sounded more like a "OMG look we're smart and totally not scene whores. Look! I can code!" than anything else. I mean, looking at hot hacker chics is cool and all, but I've never been a big fan of segregating the hacker group by sex. Yes, you have to work harder to have people really think you know your shit, and there's a lot that you need to get through, but I think a better way to combat that would be to have all the girls that would be a part of that panel sign up for their own panel where they talk about something that they know and are good at, and prove that girls really can be smart by actually being smart; rather than sitting and bitching about how they know stuff, even though they have breasts. Just my two cents, take it for what you will. I'd probably still go to the panel just to ogle, and I think that's what a lot of the guys would be going there for.