This is why we need The Hague...

[liz_marcs]

via SadlyNo

The thing about torture is simple: It. Does. Not. Work.

Ever.

If you want to lord it over a POW, if you're getting off on the power you have over people's lives, if you want someone to tell you something you want to hear, then, yes, torture works.

If you want the truth? Not so much.

I see the debate in this country over

Comments

[ginmar]

I have you friended; you can certainly see over the past few days how the general run of my beliefs--torture is inhumane, women are human beings, etc., etc., -----has resulted in death threats, insults, and attempts at real life stalking---from some of the sort of people who see torture as just one more dominance game. That's what it's about, not information. And I have to add, too, that let's face it----when you're dealing with people who are scared already, shutting them up is the problem, not softening them up. The Iraqis were so glad to be rid of Saddam--I'll never forget that. And then we turned out to be him all over again.

Oh, God, faulty intel----if there's two any bitterer words in the English language I don't know what they are. We had people turning in their neighbors for old grudges. We had one guy whom we rewarded for accurate information get targeted by jealous neighbors. I had the soul-crushing experience of interrogating a guy I knew was innocent, and over my objections and that of my whole chain he was still sent to Abu Ghraib. A friend of mine got tossed out of the Army for passing on to NPR his CO's demands: "Get more intel. Get more intel."

"They don't know anything."

"Find something."

Sometimes, there's just nothing to find. There were no WMDs. There was no nuclear program. There was nothing to find.

People are defining torture as being something they do to the bad guys. What chills my blood is the blitheness with which they toss Muslims on that particular fire. When I got a civilian job just a short time before I was activated, the diversity class teacher (hah!) simpered about Islam that "Muslims bow toward Mecca, because that's their god." I argued with that silly fool for ten minutes and I'm still not sure they changed the curriculum.

I have no idea what country I'm in these days, I really don't.

[liz_marcs]

That is horrifying.

As for people targeting you *shakes head* I still remain amazed. The reaction some people have about what you say seems just so out of balance. It's like they're reacting to something that you didn't even write half-the-time.

I admit I don't agree with you all the time (although I agree with you far more often than not), but you always at least give me something to think about it.

As for your issues with the VA *winces* I've got a cousin who runs a homeless vets shelter in central MA (he's said that the number of women homeless vets are skyrocketing like you wouldn't believe...and that almost all of them from Desert Storm, Afghanistan, and Iraq) and that trying to get funding or support from the Feds is like pulling teeth out of a chicken most of the time.

So it's not just you(TM), the widespread neglect of veterans really is getting worse and it's across the board. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

[ginmar]

You know what my trolls new favorite statement is? "Ginmar is such a bitch that she asked for that bad treatement from the VA."

Whatever I go through, it reminds me of what the Iraqis are going through. The problem was, I never had that ability to separate myself from them. To me, they were always just people, just like me, just in different clothes. I mean, one day, we were out on the street and I had a little chat with a woman in a full burka. I was wearing a uniform---teeshirt, pants, and blouse-with a helmet, a twenty pound flak vest, boots, face scarf, gloves to keep my hands from sweating on the rifle, and with ammo pouches all over, plus ammo jammed into every pocket. Plus a rifle. She was wearing a loose flowing garment. Her movements were probably less restricted than mine. There's more than one kind of burka is what I'm saying, and that moment happened a lot over there.

I don't expect everybody to agree with everything I say, as long as they agree with the basic stuff----you know, no racism, no sexism, etc., etc.,---and in fact I prefer if they don't. What people find offensive is that I set rules, I enforce them and I don't think real disagreement includes telling me to get laid or to get fucked, whichever they feel works better.

Didn't mean to digress. I've been....tense.

[liz_marcs]

Understandable, especially given your recent go-round. :-)

Shit like this, no one needs. Ever.

And nothing gets me riled more than the stereotypical pat on the head when I get annoyed that people's basic human rights aren't being respected. So I'm right there with you.

[ginmar]

What shocks me is how people seem to define 'human' as 'only those people who look and worship and dress like me.' I've been to twenty different countries, you know what I've found? People want the same basic things. You know what else? People are decent, people are human and vulnerable and that's why I'm just so ashamed of what's going on in this country now.