[ANON POST] Hebrew Unisex Name

Jan 27, 2014 13:07

Setting: Alternate universe, speculative fiction/surreal fantasy. The story is taking place in modern times ( Read more... )

~languages: hebrew, ~names

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antongarou January 27 2014, 21:36:42 UTC
Israeli here

1. At modern times the name is unisex leaning to female - a male named Shani is not uncommon among the name bearers, but my first reaction if given nothing other then the name would be to lean toward identifying the person as female. I am not familiar with older practices.

2. Definitely not red hair. "Shani" is a very distinct red: think a pure red rose. a birthmark might be that color, but not hair.

3. I wouldn't have connected them at all, but this might be different between subcultures(I come from a non-practicing Ashkenazi family)

4. Yes, the color was very strongly connected with various religious garb that the Kohanim(priests) wore in the Temple as well as other textiles used in the Temple. This connection is less strong among nonreligious people today since a lot of us do not know the details of that garb.

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lovechilde January 28 2014, 20:41:21 UTC
Seconded. Shani hasn't been a unisex name for very long, and while I do know a few guys named Shani, they get mistaken for girls online a lot. And they all spell it Shany, btw.

The red string talisman is very recognizable, but not the first thing most Hebrew speaking people think of in connection with the name Shani, in my experience. It does have the religious connotation, but for secular people it's not a very strong association.

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antongarou January 29 2014, 04:51:52 UTC
Thank you for your reply! Would you say the spelling is significant enough to warrant changing?

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lovechilde January 29 2014, 05:54:42 UTC
No, it's a preference thing. They're pretty interchangable.

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hagar_972 January 28 2014, 21:53:12 UTC
Third Israeli Jew piping in ( ... )

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antongarou January 29 2014, 04:41:27 UTC
Hey, OP here ( ... )

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hagar_972 January 29 2014, 07:50:21 UTC
Last names in Israel work about as they do in Europe or North America. However, last names are more likely to betray ethnicity (at least of paternal line) than first name. e.g. names that North Americans typically recognize as Jewish, e.g. Weissman, are often German or Eastern European last names and so indicate an Ashkenazi background. Conversely, the last name Mualem is North African. This gets messed with in two ways. One, kids born in the 1980s are mixed half the time and younger kids are even more likely to be mixed. Two, Hebrew-language last names (which may or may not be soundalikes or translation of the orig names). When I want a descent-ambiguous name for an Israeli char, I usually go for Hebrew-language last names, because anyone else gives me at least one grandparent's ethnicity. (And even some Hebrew last names are loaded; "Banai" is Sepharadi, "Melamed" is Ashkenazi ( ... )

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antongarou January 29 2014, 21:29:00 UTC
You are definitely right, I have a lot of research to do. My usual process is to develop the character before identifying their background, but in this case there are so many particulars (and so many hypotheticals) that it may be better to work in the opposite direction ( ... )

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hagar_972 January 30 2014, 10:42:53 UTC
Part 1/2

Most present-day (and past ~100yr or so) Sepharadi Jews are not culturally Hispanic in a way that would come with Spanish/Portuguese names, or even language proficiency. So... yeah. For a Spanish/Portuguese name you want a South American Jew, and they are largely three-generation-later Pole (Ashkenazi) Jews. It's diasporas within diasporas.

Okay, so the city isn't actually broken down into quarters, though high-concentration areas may occur. (And will likely occur if you have a Jewish community, because some of them will be observant or will take up some observance to help them feel Jewish, and you pretty much need to live close for things like going to the mikve or walking to the synagogue on a Saturday and I have not yet said a word about eruv - you have an active Jewish community, they will tend to mostly live in one or more walking-distance clusters. i.e. each cluster is walking-distance within itself, but clusters may not be walking-distance from each other ( ... )

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hagar_972 January 30 2014, 10:43:10 UTC
Part 2/2

I'm also... not sure how I feel about the idea of a child raised by a community, without an identifiable parent. With an Israeli-origin group in particular, it's difficult for me to imagine that. Israelis are highly familial; and for all that we're famous for independent thinking, we're pretty damn communitarian. Unless the community went Kibbutz and there is a Children's Home (which is a possibility! But then you will need to research that and explain how it happened and why is it still a viable model, because the Children's Homes proved nonviable), then there will be identifiable parents. For Diaspora groups, you will probably need to research that particular group and their history and ambient culture ( ... )

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antongarou January 31 2014, 00:13:55 UTC
Okay, well, big question first ( ... )

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hagar_972 January 31 2014, 20:10:24 UTC
1/3

a huge part of this MC's story is their attempt to reconcile individual and collective identity. They are living in an unstable and almost entirely isolated society. Acceptance by a community and adherence to its cultural/religious norms are vastly important factors in survival, and the MC, as a disenfranchised individual, is aware of this.

Oh, yes, a Jewish community will give you this in spades. Something that may be of interest to you here - and which really highlights this - is that the point of many of the mitzvot is to distinguish Jewish persons from goyim and to make it difficult to live together: Kashrut (no pork, seafood or meat/dairy combos), she'atnez (no weaving together of cotton and wool), and more. It really, really shows in the common joke that Jewish persons make aliya (literally "ascend", immigrate to Israel) so that they can be "lazy Jews" in the country where the Shabbat is law and Jewish Holy Days are state holidays ( ... )

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hagar_972 January 31 2014, 20:10:43 UTC
2/3

Judaism has a lot of overlap between nationality, ethnicity, religion, and culture.

Oh god here it gets complicated - but complicated is Interesting, and you actively want this complexity, so great.

Judaism is understood as a religion, an ethnicity and a nationality. These facets of this identity are not identical and do not always overlap. For example, Jewish persons will also have an ethnic identity based on where their families have historically lived. For example, I'm Ashkenazi, and more specifically a "yeke" - my family two generations back is primarily from German-speaking countries. Within the context of a Jewish community, I'm of a different ethnicity of someone who's family is from Tunisia, or Iraq - or someone whose family has stuck in out in J-m all these years ( ... )

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hagar_972 January 31 2014, 20:11:38 UTC
3/3

I was thinking more along the lines of a street child/local vagrant than one that was being actively communally raised, but I'm going to guess that would also not fly in a group with very deeply instilled familial values. Nonetheless, I will look up Kibbutz communities and see what I can find on them.

Possible, but not likely, and would require explanations - i.e. what's wrong with this community that they can't take in a child, since this will totally be perceived as a failure of responsibility by a healthy community. (Mutual responsibility, aarvut: biiiig deal.) Kibbutzim are pretty neat - there's a communitarian form of living that was Israeli elite for several decades or a hundred years or so. Traditionally agrarian, but urban kibbutzim exist. Israeli communities would be more likely to default to a kibbutz-like mode of living, but Diaspora groups might do it as well ( ... )

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antongarou February 5 2014, 00:16:05 UTC
Sorry for the delay in response-been a bit ill these past few days ( ... )

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antongarou January 30 2014, 11:48:14 UTC
everything hagar_972 said, But very important to note: *all* these sub-communities will band together against any and all forces from outside trying to interfere with one of them. And if at least one of the sub-communities is Israeli you'll get pushback(I think that's the term? boundary pushing of all sorts, and really aggressive reactions to pressures from outside) like you don't believe: Israelis are almost clannish in their outlook, outsiders are suspect by default, and rules are considered a polite recommendation, especially if an outsider is considered a threat to the community.

Also second the part about no identifiable parent. Unless there are Children's House style arrangements then the more likely script is either a family adopting the child or if there is a specific orphan's home of the community then zie ending up there. Jewish culture is hugely familial, and someone without parents is someone people will pity and will be considered very ill treated by fate

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