Ireland is really, really into the protection of the family. It's in our constitution that it's a big deal and gets special consideration. So if the father was trying to bring his kid over to Ireland, provided he was a citizen and in the process of applying for citizenship for the kid, he should have no problem bringing the kid to Ireland with him.
When did the parents split up? If they were married in Ireland, and they split up in the early 90s, someone could make a claim that they would have gotten divorced if they'd be able to (it was only legalised in about 95) (and if he was abusive and the mother was willing to speak out about it, she may have been able to apply for a papal annulment, which should be acceptable for a Catholic)
Similarly, has the father been entirely absent from the son's life since the separation, or has he continued to have some kind of presence, legal or otherwise? If he's been in contact with the kid and providing support, then they'll have a much, much harder time trying to get custody off him. If they
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Thanks so much for the response. My Google searches for international child custody issues and examples really didn't have anything for Europe, let alone Ireland. So I appreciate it!
The idea right now is that the father went to America and married an American woman. The marriage was rough, especially with the father being abusive, but no divorce was sought on either side due to religious reasons. I want the father to have left, preferably back to Ireland, when the boy was still young but alive, so early 90s would be a good bet for the situation I'm aiming for. The father has had minimal contact with the family, if any at all - but he'll claim that his wife refused to let him contact the kids and that he tried.
Can I ask if religious issues are taken into consideration in Ireland? In addition to a biological father filing for custody, if the father is a strict Catholic and wants his son to be raised Catholic, would that legally provide any leverage?
See, if they got married in Ireland, you could try and claim that the sister tried to make the case that the only reason they didn't divorce at the time was that they couldn't, and see if that had any weight (though I don't know if you'd need to dissolve the marriage in Ireland if you made it in Ireland)
If the kid is American though, wouldn't the custody case have to take place in America? So I don't know if what the Irish courts would think would make a difference. As to whether religion would have a bearing, I don't know - officially, I don't think it would, but it would probably heavily depend on the judge he got.
Oh, now I get what you meant! That's a good idea, thanks for the suggestion. If having them get married in Ireland is easiest, that's something I could do. Gives me something more to research, too
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Any accusations of abuse will be taken seriously in that the claims will be investigated. Is there any corroborating evidence? Does anyone other than the sister have anything to say about it? Her bringing up the charges at this late stage might be seen as a way of trying to get custody; they might also be seen as the first time she's needed to make these claims, if she was previously not in contact with her father. Abuse towards their mother may not be relevant; abuse of the kids will be.
Generally, by the age of 11 the boy will have some say in the matter. In an international case, though, it's more likely that the courts will rule in favour of keeping their citizen with his citizen guardian. Then again, the daughter would have citizenship, too!
As far as I've plotted atm, no accusations of abuse have been made until now. Actually, my hope here is that the charges would not be taken as seriously because they are seen as trick to get custody.
Right - my psychologist mother said that 11 is a trickier age. Usually kids in their teens have a lot more say in who they want to live with, but 11 is at an in between age and might be considered a bit young to make a decision. Ultimately, I do want the sister to gain custody again so maybe the boy wanting to go back to her might be something I could have the court consider.
Hmm, I was under the impression that by age 21, children with dual citizenship had to "pick" one or the other. (The sister is about 22) Though now that I'm Googling it now, I can't yet find information about it so maybe I've made that up.
US dual citizens from birth are not forced into picking and renouncing at any point. Laws forbidding dual citizenship were struck down as unconstitutional decades ago. Renouncing foreign citizenship is part of the naturalization process for new US citizens, but many countries don't recognize it (they require citizens to take different, official measures if they wish to renounce citizenship) and the US does not require new citizens to take those official steps to renounce foreign citizenships.
Indeed. The policy of the US State Department is to not recognize dual citizenship, in the sense that anyone who is a US citizen is treated as a US citizen and only a US citizen by the USA regardless of any other citizenship held by that person.
It is further policy that citizenship cannot be revoked, but can only be voluntarily surrendered. Surrendering US citizenship because it is required to obtain citizenship of another country is considered coerced and invalid and the US State department will not recognize the person as a non-citizen. Many other countries have similar laws.
As snakeling says, one country cannot force another country to confer or revoke citizenship, because Country A cannot write and enforce laws in Country B.
Regarding the father abducting the boy, would he be able to obtain a passport for his son, if he's not the guardian and the sister doesn't sign off on it?
I'm not sure, I'll have to look into that. I guess my understanding is that the father is still legally a guardian, since he never divorced or anything. I'm really not sure! I probably won't use that plot bunny, it was just an idea after I read about parents "abducting" their children into different countries.
NAL, not legal advice.
anonymous
August 18 2011, 11:20:30 UTC
First, it does not matter if the mother's will specified that the boy was suppose to go to his sister. You can try to specify guardianship for minor children but if one parent is still alive, that parent is going to be able to overrule the will. However, it depends on how out of the picture the father is and for how long he has been. Then the sister would have a case for abandonment, which is grounds for terminating parental rights
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Re: NAL, not legal advice. serriaAugust 18 2011, 14:12:03 UTC
Thanks, this is good to know. I do want the sister to be able to build a case with accusations of abandonment and abuse, but I want the kid to go back to his father (at least temporarily). But that's interesting. Could I have the father literally come into the picture and pick up the kid after school or something, without the sister's knowledge, or would that be, well, legally frowned upon?
I think I'll need the father to come to the US as far as my own plot goes. At this point, I don't think the boy has a passport yet either. Though I suppose since he has dual citizenship, he would have to apply for an Irish passport?
Thanks so much for that link. I'll try to work with that information listed - I know this is a pretty circumstantial case and there seem to be more legal details than I was anticipating!
Re: NAL, not legal advice. immortal_jediAugust 18 2011, 22:50:22 UTC
As to the passport issue, in 2000, my sister and I (both minors at the time) needed passports to travel to England with our parents. Before that, I don't know.
Both Ireland and the USA are signatories to the Hague Convention, which in part states that any custody issues must be resolved in the CHILD's country, not the parent's. So it depends where the child was born which country's courts would hear the case (although could be argued that if they were born in one place but their habitual residence were another, that the residential country *might* be able to decide).
If you wanted the case heard in Ireland, then it could be that child was born there, birth registered there, & moved to the states when aged a few months/1 year or thereabouts?
I don't know as much about Ireland, but in the UK, the emphasis is on the best interests of the child, and blood relationship does not trump that. You can argue that the blood relationship makes it in the best interests of the child to be with X person, but it isn't an automatic win. (UK <> Ireland though - and tbh, I'm thinking Scotland over England here!)
Thanks - I did see some information about that, and that's fine. I'd really prefer the case was heard in the US, since it's an easier setting for me to work with. But it would be an interesting scenario if the case was heard in Ireland. I would just have to do more research.
The above poster mentioned that in Ireland, protection of the family (I assume traditional family) is important. This would work well for me, because I really want the assumption to be that because the man is his father, he should be the one taking care of his son - even though he's a really sketchy guy. My story's focus is about the unconventional family of the sister and boy and how they make things work out in the end, so I'm trying to make that the conflict.
AFAIK in the US, emphasis is also on the best interests of the child. What would happen if the case was heard in one country, but the child was brought over to another country and the custody battle ensued? Would it be heard again under different criteria?
This may not help, as it is a vague memory of something I read in a paper or heard on a radio news report or something, so I may have the details wrong, but a couple of years ago, I heard a story about a family in the UK where social services were going to take the children into state custody, so they ran away with the children to Ireland, precisely because of the differences in law. Here, it is very unusual for children to be adopted from foster care; generally they are placed in long term foster homes, where they live until adulthood or beyond and I THINK contact with natural parents often continues (though I'm not at all sure about this). If the news I heard was accurate, they were hoping the case could take place under Irish law. It didn't work. The children were returned to the UK and the social services there dealt with it. Not the same situation as what you are looking for, but might give some indication
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I don't know as much about Ireland, but in the UK, the emphasis is on the best interests of the child, and blood relationship does not trump thatThat's a big difference between the UK and Ireland, and one of the things that keeps coming up in child abuse cases in Ireland, and in anything to do with custory. The Irish constitution "recognises the Family as the natural primary and fundamental unit group of Society" and "[t]he State pledges itself to guard with special care the institution of Marriage, on which the Family is founded". There isn't any formal provision in Irish law for the rights of a child, even though Ireland is a signatory to the UN Convention of Rights of the Child, because it would probably require a constitutional change which would require a referendum and even though nearly everyone agrees it ought to be done, nobody's got around to it yet. So all the legal arguments around marriage, divorce, custody and child protection are very different in Ireland from the UK (not that this is much help to the OP, since she's
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When did the parents split up? If they were married in Ireland, and they split up in the early 90s, someone could make a claim that they would have gotten divorced if they'd be able to (it was only legalised in about 95) (and if he was abusive and the mother was willing to speak out about it, she may have been able to apply for a papal annulment, which should be acceptable for a Catholic)
Similarly, has the father been entirely absent from the son's life since the separation, or has he continued to have some kind of presence, legal or otherwise? If he's been in contact with the kid and providing support, then they'll have a much, much harder time trying to get custody off him. If they ( ... )
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The idea right now is that the father went to America and married an American woman. The marriage was rough, especially with the father being abusive, but no divorce was sought on either side due to religious reasons. I want the father to have left, preferably back to Ireland, when the boy was still young but alive, so early 90s would be a good bet for the situation I'm aiming for. The father has had minimal contact with the family, if any at all - but he'll claim that his wife refused to let him contact the kids and that he tried.
Can I ask if religious issues are taken into consideration in Ireland? In addition to a biological father filing for custody, if the father is a strict Catholic and wants his son to be raised Catholic, would that legally provide any leverage?
Thanks so much for your help!
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If the kid is American though, wouldn't the custody case have to take place in America? So I don't know if what the Irish courts would think would make a difference. As to whether religion would have a bearing, I don't know - officially, I don't think it would, but it would probably heavily depend on the judge he got.
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Generally, by the age of 11 the boy will have some say in the matter. In an international case, though, it's more likely that the courts will rule in favour of keeping their citizen with his citizen guardian. Then again, the daughter would have citizenship, too!
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Right - my psychologist mother said that 11 is a trickier age. Usually kids in their teens have a lot more say in who they want to live with, but 11 is at an in between age and might be considered a bit young to make a decision. Ultimately, I do want the sister to gain custody again so maybe the boy wanting to go back to her might be something I could have the court consider.
Hmm, I was under the impression that by age 21, children with dual citizenship had to "pick" one or the other. (The sister is about 22) Though now that I'm Googling it now, I can't yet find information about it so maybe I've made that up.
Thanks. :)
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It is further policy that citizenship cannot be revoked, but can only be voluntarily surrendered. Surrendering US citizenship because it is required to obtain citizenship of another country is considered coerced and invalid and the US State department will not recognize the person as a non-citizen. Many other countries have similar laws.
As snakeling says, one country cannot force another country to confer or revoke citizenship, because Country A cannot write and enforce laws in Country B.
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I think I'll need the father to come to the US as far as my own plot goes. At this point, I don't think the boy has a passport yet either. Though I suppose since he has dual citizenship, he would have to apply for an Irish passport?
Thanks so much for that link. I'll try to work with that information listed - I know this is a pretty circumstantial case and there seem to be more legal details than I was anticipating!
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If you wanted the case heard in Ireland, then it could be that child was born there, birth registered there, & moved to the states when aged a few months/1 year or thereabouts?
I don't know as much about Ireland, but in the UK, the emphasis is on the best interests of the child, and blood relationship does not trump that. You can argue that the blood relationship makes it in the best interests of the child to be with X person, but it isn't an automatic win. (UK <> Ireland though - and tbh, I'm thinking Scotland over England here!)
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The above poster mentioned that in Ireland, protection of the family (I assume traditional family) is important. This would work well for me, because I really want the assumption to be that because the man is his father, he should be the one taking care of his son - even though he's a really sketchy guy. My story's focus is about the unconventional family of the sister and boy and how they make things work out in the end, so I'm trying to make that the conflict.
AFAIK in the US, emphasis is also on the best interests of the child. What would happen if the case was heard in one country, but the child was brought over to another country and the custody battle ensued? Would it be heard again under different criteria?
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