English translation or equivalent of Unetane Tokeff (title/phrase)

[hagar_972]

This is a bit of a strange question. It's for a story though, and it's not exactly google-able.

I am trying to translate - or find an English equivalent of - the name of the Hebrew Atonement Day chant, ונתנה תוקף. (On Wikipedia.) It's old and weird Hebrew, and I need a translation that will both preserve the original sense (rather than, say, using

Comments

[azalaea]

There's a rather gorgeous Christian hymn which has pretty much that exact phrase in the following verse:

"O tell of his might, O sing of his grace
Whose robe is the light, whose canopy space
His chariots of wrath the deep thunder-clouds form;
And dark is His path on the wings of the storm."

http://nethymnal.org/htm/o/w/owtking.htm

[hagar_972]

Much more pastoral than what I had in mind, but it gives me more context to work with. Thanks!

[azalaea]

Hmm - to me it doesn't sound "pastoral" at all, much more "OH HOLY SHIT IT'S GOD." But you want something more "doomy", well, have you tried Revelation, the last book of the New Testament? I mean, it's about the end of the world and thus pretty much doom and "get yourselves in order OR ELSE" all the way through. Starts here: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=1&version=9

Or you could try some version of Matthew 25:13 "ye know neither the day nor the hour", - i.e, you never know when Christ/Judgement is going to come, so make sure you're ready. http://scripturetext.com/matthew/25-13.htm... )

[hagar_972]

It has pretty natural imagery and the invoked sense of Father has something more than sternness in it. That, on my standards, is postively cheery. High Holiday prayers - which were my startpoint - are about 50% lists of sins and strange death and 50% "You're very great and we're very small" so next to that, the psalm you linked to is a cheery and warm Sabbath song.

Eek, the end of the world is... not exactly what I meant. I intended not so much "Judgement Day" as "personal Judgement". (Again, my cultural context is of a religion where you'd judged for life or death every year, on a date that's equivalent to ten days after a happy holiday like Christmass, complete with a 25hr fast, 16hr prayer and a week and a half of aplogizing to anyone you may have hurt in the passing year. And that's the secular-to-standard-observant, not the orthodox+ version. This practice is so deeply ingrained that about 70% of declared seculars fast on this day, and virtually everyone to the apologies and treat them as sacred

[jamoche]

I'm Catholic; sounds like you might want something like what we sing during Lent (the period leading up to Easter; this will give you some sense of it, though it's probably not as generally well known as you're looking for).

[hagar_972]

Yes, this is the equivalent of what I had in mind. There are a number of elements in there I can probably adapt and use. Thank you!

[azalaea]

Heh. Yeah, to me it sounds beautiful but definitely menacing, very much "great while we are small." Maybe it's because there's no Jesus in there, I'm probably more trained to associate all the optimistic bits of religion with him.

Hmm: you could try this from the Book of Common Prayer http://www.xpeastbourne.org/cw/trad.txt (scroll down to the section beginning "Almighty God our Heavenly Father," though you might find other parts of the service helpful too). That's a prayer for forgiveness, and "thought and word and deed" would be quite adaptable in the text. But it's not particularly doomy. I think possibly a problem is, in Christianity, confession/apology/prayer for forgiveness is an optimistic act, because, as it says there "God... forgives all who truly repent." All the DOOM is really reserved for the end of days, Hell, etc, not for this life

[hagar_972]

Yes, this is closet - certainly gives me a better idea of the culture my characters are coming from. (It's... quite remarkable.)

Having read through the page - were I to use the word Kyrie, how recognizable would it be? On the scale from "Is that Japanese?" to recognizing the context right of the bat.

[azalaea]

Oof, tough question. Well, speaking for myself, I went to a Church of England school, am now non-practising and agnostic but feel "culturally" Christian, and my reaction to that word was a sort of "What's-that-oh-yes". I mean, it's so short that even if you're actually in a church and DOING it you might not realise it had a name. And the experiences of people from different denominations are obviously going to vary. So, somewhere between your two poles, I think, and my FEELING is that practising, church-going Christians would probably recognise it, people who'd never gone to church probably wouldn't unless they had picked it up from books, and vague, once-upon-a-time or occasional worshippers might or might not recognise it as something religious, especially if there was context, but might not be able to pin down exactly what it was.

I would think it wouldn't be too hard to explain and jog the reader's memory, though, especially in dialogue.

[hagar_972]

Well, it seems this was just picked as the first part's title. Fairly recognizable, easily searchable if at first obscure, and considering what's going on in that part of the story - guaranteed to mess with whoever's recognizing what it means.

[azalaea]

Cool!

[azalaea]

I might suggest having the actual thing as an epigraph under the title, seeing as it's so short. Should stop people thinking it's a SF thing or a girl's name or whatever.

[azalaea]

Oh or you could go with Kyrie Eleison as below.

[dustthouart]

I'm a Roman Catholic and we sing the Kyrie Eleison in Greek at a number of parishes I've been in. I don't think it's uncommon--I've been in parishes in many places in Pennsylvania, and in Vancouver CA, that used the Greek

[hagar_972]

Israel has bible class from elementary school, and they sort of fail at being critical about it. Plenty secular ("non-practicing") families aren't happy about it, but at least everyone has a basic idea where we've come from.

So you have the absurd situation in some universities where you have people who haven't read Genesis, but they have read Milton.

Ah, meta-post-modern society: read the ripoff, forget the original. I understand with the sentiment.

Kyrie Eleison seems to be a recognizable enough phrase, and the meaning works perfectly with the first half of the story. I think it got picked as a title for that part.

[emily_shore]

I assume Greek Orthodox would know it too.

Oh yes, oh yes.