Dwarves vs. Elves

[zireael07]

I noticed yesterday evening, on my way home, that the Polish word for dwarf is 'krasnolud'. 'Krasny' being an old-fashioned word for 'beautiful', which come to Polish from Russian and 'lud' meaning folk. Thus, dwarf 'krasnolud' = 'beaufiful folk-man' and dwarfs/dwarves 'krasnoludy' = 'beautiful folk-men

Comments

[oryx_and_crake]

Are there any elves in Polish/Slavic folk lore? I don't think so. I am doubtful about dwarves, as well. Obviously both terms are translations and they could undergo any kind of transformation in the process.

[zireael07]

Well, I'm sure that they are translations, however, both 'elfy' for elves or fairies and 'krasnoludki' (dwarves, diminutive ending) are quite old and used for, give or take, at least 2 centuries. I'd have to check when Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs was first translated into Polish to know the exact start date ...

[muckefuck]

"Translations" in what sense? Are you saying that krasnolud is calqued on a term in another language and, if so, which?

As for elf, it's not a "translation" but a straight-up borrowing from English (possibly intermediated by German, which also borrowed it early in the Romantic era).

[oryx_and_crake]

>>"Translations" in what sense?
In the same sense that there are no dwarves or elves or gnomes or trolls or fairies or ogres or cobolds in, for example, Russian folklore. Russian uses borrowed terms for all of them. In the process, some of them get mixed up or slapped together. For example, both dwarves and gnomes will be гномы, and I can very well imagine a situation where an ogre will be called a troll in Russian translation.

>>Are you saying that krasnolud is calqued on a term in another language
Yes, it seems quite possible to me.
>>and, if so, which?
No idea. Is it that important?

[muckefuck]

The distinctions between mythological beings of this sort are not hard and fast. Indeed, many are claimed to be masters of changing or concealing their true appearance! Before Tolkien created the genre of high fantasy, "elves" were generally conceived of in the English folkloric tradition as being very small and often quite ugly. In the Nibelungenlied, the character of Alberich is described as a "dwarf" (twerc) even though etymologically his name means "king of the elves".

[lied_ohne_worte]

Hm, this made me wonder why they are "Elben" rather than "Elfen" in the German translation - and lo and behold (from Tolkien's "Guide to the Names in Lord of the Rings", which he wrote for translators):

With regard to German: I would suggest with diffidence that Elf, elfen are perhaps to be avoided as equivalents of elf, elven. Elf is, I believe, borrowed from English, and may retain some of the associations of a kind that I should particularly desire not to be present (if possible): for example those of Drayton or of A Midsummer Night's Dream (in the translation of which, I believe, Elf was first used in German). That is, the pretty, fanciful reduction of 'elf' to a butterfly-like creature inhabiting flowers

[aletheiafelinea]

Um, I should point at a mistake which sneaked into this reasoning, and as far as I know, it's a quite popular mistake.
красный (krasnyĭ) = red
красивый (krasivyĭ) = beautiful

Krasny ludek --> krasnoludek in Polish folklore means tiny, human-shaped imps wearing red caps, similar to dwarves, but much smaller. The first Tolkien's translator in Poland, Maria Skibniewska, contrived the neologism krasnolud for Tolkien's dwarves, what is augumentatived (the antithesis of diminutived) krasnoludek. So I think the elvish theory is wrong, though nice. :)

[plainday]

krasnŷ as 'beautiful' is an archaic meaning of the word
for instance, krasna devica is a beautiful girl

[aletheiafelinea]

Same as in Old Polish 'krasny' had different meanings: red, beautiful, dyed (kraszanka = decorated easter egg). Still, for krasnoludek, the red cap matters, not the hypothetical beauty of said mythical creatures. Anyway, in Slavic cultures, most of imp-like creatures are characteristic for their ugliness rather than for being handsome/attractive/good looking.
And coming back to the beginning, the etymology of krasnolud in the Polish translation of Tolkien's works (later widespread in the all fantasy genre in Poland) is well-known, enough to be mentioned in Wikipedia. One can find also more detailed sources on the subject, e.g. this essay about Skibniewska's translation: home.agh.edu.pl/~evermind/sn/gan01.htm (in Polish)

[muckefuck]

In Western European tradition, fairies and the like were often depicted as ugly but also as easily offended and vengeful, leading to the devisement of many taboos to avoid calling down their wrath. One of the most common was a taboo against naming their bad qualities. For this reason, they were often euphemistically called "the fair folk" or "the good folk" (cf. Welsh tylwyth teg "fair folk", bendith y mamau "blessing of the mothers"; Irish daoine maithe "good people", etc.).

I have no idea whether or not the same euphemistic tradition exists in Eastern Europe, but this is the very first thing I thought of when I saw the name krasnolud.