I feel I ought to be able to help, as I live in the Midi-Pyrenees, but unfortunately I haven't studied Occitan at all. None the less I could try to ask around if you like...there are people who speak patois around, and I suppose that must be a descendant?
That's something I'm not sure of - is Occitan/Provencal, as known today, a dead language that is being revived based on historic texts (which would explain why the 'vocabulary' in language sites is limited to about 2,000 words), or is it a living language surviving as a patois? If the latter, why isn't there a full vocab for at least the things which have always existed around the region, including herons? You might have to borrow for new inventions, like aeroplanes and computers, but wildlife words should have survived.
As I understood it, Provencal was closer to Spanish than French, and I suppose you might be able to distinguish if what the people are speaking is a patois of French or a survival of Provencal.
But if you could ask around, it would be great. And I envy you living in the Midi-Pyranees. Such beauty.
The patois is certainly still alive, if not all that healthy. It ressembles a sort of dog-latin to me, I remember an old man referring to a cat as "cattus" and a shirt as a "camis" but I don't know any spanish, so maybe I'm going in the wrong direction. When I lived in Creuse which is Massif Central, the patois had a definate italian feel, but I have forgotten the few words that I picked up... The children can learn Occitan in school, but Raphael opted for spanish, and the girls both did german. I will ask the other parents at the parents meeting on Friday how it relates to patois. It's an interesting question which I hadn't given any thought to until now. I'll get back to you.
According to the Logos dictionary, Chamisa is Occitan for shirt, and Cat for cat, so it could be. But there were different dialects in the old days too, and probably some sort of drift since then. And I'd expect an Italian influence to the East and a Spanish one to the South.
The poetic output of the troubadours does seem to have ended in the thirteenth century, which implies that the language was dropped by the 'educated' classes and bedded down in the countryside amid the peasants - which again ties in with what I gathered from 'Montaillou'. That it can have survived is no stranger than that Welsh survived.
I will be very interested to know what your fellow parents say, and perhaps the Occitan teacher can say whether 'pons d'airon' and 'mas rana' are OK.
Actually, Occitan has influenced Italian and Spanish more than Spanish has ever influenced it. Recall that during the golden age of the Troubadors, minstrels from Galicia to Piedmont were composing in the language. This inevitably led to some effect on their native languages; Spanish has dozens of loanwords from Occitan.
Cat and chamisa look like they are from different dialects. In the north (e.g. Auvergnat) and east (Provence), palatalisation before /a/ is the rule, but Lengadocian and Gascon varieties preserve the original Latin values. That is, chamisa looks like Provençal and cat looks like Lengadocian. (These are the two most prominent standardised varieties and most dialects are written in an orthography derived from one or the other.)
Thank you: that is interesting. I really must study this as part of my drive to understand more about the Middle Ages. As for Occitan itself, I am slightly concerned about how much difference there was between the Atlantic coast and the Mediterranean, not to mention between the Auvergne and the Pyrenees. But my characters can of course make themselves understood wherever they go: English as the universal language.
Divergence in the modern dialects is not the best guide to the variation that existed 800 years earlier. For instance, the change of cat > chat in some dialects may be due to influence from French and, therefore, comparatively recent; the differences between the various Occitan varieties would not have been so pronounced in the Middle Ages. It also makes a big difference whether they're trying to speak to peasants (who may never have been more than a few leagues from their birthplace) or merchants, clerics, troubadours, and others who have been exposed to a range of accents and dialects.
Even today, speakers of standard Italian and standard Spanish can talk to each other if they make an effort and keep the topics simple. Given that, I don't see how people from two sides of the Midi would have much difficulty at all.
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As I understood it, Provencal was closer to Spanish than French, and I suppose you might be able to distinguish if what the people are speaking is a patois of French or a survival of Provencal.
But if you could ask around, it would be great. And I envy you living in the Midi-Pyranees. Such beauty.
Rosina
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The children can learn Occitan in school, but Raphael opted for spanish, and the girls both did german. I will ask the other parents at the parents meeting on Friday how it relates to patois. It's an interesting question which I hadn't given any thought to until now.
I'll get back to you.
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http://www.lexicool.com/dictionary_logos.asp
The poetic output of the troubadours does seem to have ended in the thirteenth century, which implies that the language was dropped by the 'educated' classes and bedded down in the countryside amid the peasants - which again ties in with what I gathered from 'Montaillou'. That it can have survived is no stranger than that Welsh survived.
I will be very interested to know what your fellow parents say, and perhaps the Occitan teacher can say whether 'pons d'airon' and 'mas rana' are OK.
Reply
Cat and chamisa look like they are from different dialects. In the north (e.g. Auvergnat) and east (Provence), palatalisation before /a/ is the rule, but Lengadocian and Gascon varieties preserve the original Latin values. That is, chamisa looks like Provençal and cat looks like Lengadocian. (These are the two most prominent standardised varieties and most dialects are written in an orthography derived from one or the other.)
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Even today, speakers of standard Italian and standard Spanish can talk to each other if they make an effort and keep the topics simple. Given that, I don't see how people from two sides of the Midi would have much difficulty at all.
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