Wow, okay so... I think you've really hit the nail on the head as to why I dislike their music and them as people so much, even knowing so little about them. If people come out to play over here, you're going to get a lot of arguments about how authentic these guys are and how they worked their way up and they're not manufactured, etc. How appealing to the Hot Topic crowd wasn't even a thought in their heads when they started out, and so on.
Good luck arguing with that :P There's a very long thread between ethrosdemon and... some other people I don't know over on my post, in which ethros attempts to explain that the music industry is a business out to make money and the other people... do not agree, heatedly. It's an interesting thread though :P
But I want to say I agree, and this is primarily why I really dislike most of the music and the bands. Not all of it, but a good chunk of it. I grew up in the 90s listening to Nirvana and NIN and STP and Pearl Jam and Garbage. Other bands were all poseurs, no matter what they did. Marilyn Manson was... fantastic in a way, but clearly doing the insane things he did to make cash. To me, Manson was the same as Britney Spears--manipulating people into thinking that they were something worthwhile based on image and not a lot of authenticity or talent. But the difference for me (and why I continue to love Brit Brit with all my heart), is that Britney SAID, "I am fake, don't you want to fuck me?" She didn't hide her falseness, she was completely honest about it and we all knew that she was a manufactured pop princess. She wasn't a poseur, she was exactly what she seemed.
And that's not how I view, say, Panic. I do see them as poseurs. I read their Rolling Stone article a while back, and while RS isn't always the best relayer of information, the most interesting part of the article to me was one of them saying that they got signed before they'd played in front of an audience; that suddenly their music was getting played on the radio and they were playing gigantic shows. This wasn't a band like, say, Nsync or Backstreet that had to do mall tours and go to Germany and get a following there and come back to America two years later to start all over at the bottom. They started at the top. And when one of them expressed concern about it, that they thought there would be more buildup, the RS reported told them that their label PAID for their song to be on the radio, and would he rather they didn't? No, of course not. Whose label are they signed on? Pete Wentz's, of course.
Anyway. Maybe it's just Panic I have an issue with, although I sincerely doubt it :P But this post has cleared up a lot of why I dislike them so much, so thank you!
Yeah, I have a very hard time understanding the people who can't understand basic economic theory. Money is the motivating factor for most of our society - maybe it shouldn't be, but it is. And that isn't objectively a bad thing, it's just a true thing.
And, OK, I'm a socialist, but I don't begrudge people trying to make a living, I just have a problem with people who do it and then claim that they are in it for the art or somesuch nonsense. I get offended on behalf of the real artists. That's why it is a lot easier for me to reconcile the pop thing than the emo bands thing, because, like you said, they never claimed to be anything they weren't.
And, ok, they're authentic or whatever - sure. I don't know the actual histories of these bands, but this isn't an objective judgment - it's a gut feeling. They aren't going to change my mind, or my understanding of capitalism, so *shrugs,* we'll just have to disagree.
I probably won't get those people though - I don't actually have that many people on my flist, so I suspect this will pass mostly unnoticed. Which is fine because it was mostly intended as a comment on your post, although, really? I never get involved in anything, so it might be kind of fun to do so. *grins*
In conclusion: CHRIS. WITH GOGGLES. Somehow I've managed to never realize before yesterday that he was actually REALLY FUCKING HOT. I don't know how this happened, but it's, like, a revelation. I think he's maybe one of those people who doesn't capture well in still photos, but does on video, because he is always moving. *is off to youtube*
Oh, I fucking love Chris and I would have his BABIES and I hate babies and don't ever want them but seriously, I would have Chris's. I think Chris is pretty hot in all carnations, from 90s skater hair to pineapple head to spikes to beard horns. He's wearing goggles all over Germany, for some reason i can't fathom, but I don't care because it's AWESOME and it's soooo Chris. He doesn't take good pictures, but video is awesome. If you find the one of him pretending to be Canadian and chasing down Nsync's opening act on golf cart... that and No Mercy is when I fell in love with Chris :P
Re: part twophaballaSeptember 12 2007, 23:39:52 UTC
Yeah, I had to turn off comment notifications on that post because well... it's been a week and I'm pretty done with the subject and people kept commenting who hadn't bothered to read the entire discussion, so the whole rehashing what we'd already talked about in the comments was just... ick. Too much.
Anyway, of course I think the bands I like are awesome and bands I don't like are poseurs! That's the way it works. I like NIN, so I think Trent Reznor is the greatest producer of all time and a genius and okay, maybe he had a couple rough albums but mostly, he's the best thing ever, blah blah. I don't like Panic!, so of course I see their stage antics as false and gimmicky and their music as redundant and derivative and boring.
Everyone's out there to make money. In the music business, big bands exist to make their record labels money, that's the way it works. I'm not fooling myself into thinking that Nirvana just did it because they loved music so much. Of COURSE they wanted money, too, and probably fame and all that. But when I was in high school and I was obsessed with those bands? I would never have imagined they were in it for money in any way. I would've been all, "Kurt Cobain DIED for his art, shut up it was never about money!" That's the way we feel about the bands we love. I expect that that's the way people today feel about emo bands.
Now I'm into pop music, so I don't have to feel that way. I have no doubt in my mind that NSYNC wanted to make a fuckton of cash. Did they work for it? Of course. They worked hard, they got screwed, they had to sue to get out of a contract that was leaving them making less than I do now a year as an admin, even when they'd gone platinum in the US and had bunches of gold records in Europe. And maybe they loved singing and dancing and performing, but they were doing it to make money and be famous. And there's nothing wrong with that!
And that's all I meant. I like pop music and I like that they're honest about why they do it. I don't like emo bands and I think they're poseurs, but you know--all my impressions of what these guys are like and their motivations comes from their fans, so who knows. The fans are so defensive, I am left wondering WHY.
Good luck arguing with that :P There's a very long thread between ethrosdemon and... some other people I don't know over on my post, in which ethros attempts to explain that the music industry is a business out to make money and the other people... do not agree, heatedly. It's an interesting thread though :P
But I want to say I agree, and this is primarily why I really dislike most of the music and the bands. Not all of it, but a good chunk of it. I grew up in the 90s listening to Nirvana and NIN and STP and Pearl Jam and Garbage. Other bands were all poseurs, no matter what they did. Marilyn Manson was... fantastic in a way, but clearly doing the insane things he did to make cash. To me, Manson was the same as Britney Spears--manipulating people into thinking that they were something worthwhile based on image and not a lot of authenticity or talent. But the difference for me (and why I continue to love Brit Brit with all my heart), is that Britney SAID, "I am fake, don't you want to fuck me?" She didn't hide her falseness, she was completely honest about it and we all knew that she was a manufactured pop princess. She wasn't a poseur, she was exactly what she seemed.
And that's not how I view, say, Panic. I do see them as poseurs. I read their Rolling Stone article a while back, and while RS isn't always the best relayer of information, the most interesting part of the article to me was one of them saying that they got signed before they'd played in front of an audience; that suddenly their music was getting played on the radio and they were playing gigantic shows. This wasn't a band like, say, Nsync or Backstreet that had to do mall tours and go to Germany and get a following there and come back to America two years later to start all over at the bottom. They started at the top. And when one of them expressed concern about it, that they thought there would be more buildup, the RS reported told them that their label PAID for their song to be on the radio, and would he rather they didn't? No, of course not. Whose label are they signed on? Pete Wentz's, of course.
Anyway. Maybe it's just Panic I have an issue with, although I sincerely doubt it :P But this post has cleared up a lot of why I dislike them so much, so thank you!
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Yeah, I have a very hard time understanding the people who can't understand basic economic theory. Money is the motivating factor for most of our society - maybe it shouldn't be, but it is. And that isn't objectively a bad thing, it's just a true thing.
And, OK, I'm a socialist, but I don't begrudge people trying to make a living, I just have a problem with people who do it and then claim that they are in it for the art or somesuch nonsense. I get offended on behalf of the real artists. That's why it is a lot easier for me to reconcile the pop thing than the emo bands thing, because, like you said, they never claimed to be anything they weren't.
And, ok, they're authentic or whatever - sure. I don't know the actual histories of these bands, but this isn't an objective judgment - it's a gut feeling. They aren't going to change my mind, or my understanding of capitalism, so *shrugs,* we'll just have to disagree.
I probably won't get those people though - I don't actually have that many people on my flist, so I suspect this will pass mostly unnoticed. Which is fine because it was mostly intended as a comment on your post, although, really? I never get involved in anything, so it might be kind of fun to do so. *grins*
In conclusion: CHRIS. WITH GOGGLES. Somehow I've managed to never realize before yesterday that he was actually REALLY FUCKING HOT. I don't know how this happened, but it's, like, a revelation. I think he's maybe one of those people who doesn't capture well in still photos, but does on video, because he is always moving. *is off to youtube*
I hope your Sunday is going splendidly!
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(The comment has been removed)
Anyway, of course I think the bands I like are awesome and bands I don't like are poseurs! That's the way it works. I like NIN, so I think Trent Reznor is the greatest producer of all time and a genius and okay, maybe he had a couple rough albums but mostly, he's the best thing ever, blah blah. I don't like Panic!, so of course I see their stage antics as false and gimmicky and their music as redundant and derivative and boring.
Everyone's out there to make money. In the music business, big bands exist to make their record labels money, that's the way it works. I'm not fooling myself into thinking that Nirvana just did it because they loved music so much. Of COURSE they wanted money, too, and probably fame and all that. But when I was in high school and I was obsessed with those bands? I would never have imagined they were in it for money in any way. I would've been all, "Kurt Cobain DIED for his art, shut up it was never about money!" That's the way we feel about the bands we love. I expect that that's the way people today feel about emo bands.
Now I'm into pop music, so I don't have to feel that way. I have no doubt in my mind that NSYNC wanted to make a fuckton of cash. Did they work for it? Of course. They worked hard, they got screwed, they had to sue to get out of a contract that was leaving them making less than I do now a year as an admin, even when they'd gone platinum in the US and had bunches of gold records in Europe. And maybe they loved singing and dancing and performing, but they were doing it to make money and be famous. And there's nothing wrong with that!
And that's all I meant. I like pop music and I like that they're honest about why they do it. I don't like emo bands and I think they're poseurs, but you know--all my impressions of what these guys are like and their motivations comes from their fans, so who knows. The fans are so defensive, I am left wondering WHY.
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