How Do They Rise Up?
Wow. I haven't updated this in a while, and I have a whole lot of things to update it with. First of all, I have the Star Wars OT DVDs! Haha! They are awesome. The picture and sound are amazing, and I don't normally notice stuff like that. I've watched most of the special features disc, ANH, and ANH with commentary. Also the end of ROTJ with Naboo (which was awesome!) and Hayden (which I thought was pretty cool, although I'm in the minority on that). And because of the awesome picture and sound, I picked up on things I never had before. I got a little emotional. Just like the first time I read the end of the novel-- "The Empire is dead. Long live the Alliance," and all.
Second, I now have Going Postal, the new Discworld book! I've started it; it is awesome. Vetinari is in it a lot. The main character's name is Moist. It's about the post office. Their slogan was in MAA, but it's in here a lot, and I still love it: "NEITHER RAIN NOR SNOW NOR GLO M OF NI T CAN STAY THESE MES ENGERS ABO T THEIR DUTY. Don't Arsk Us About: rocks troll's with sticks All sorts of dragons Mrs Cake Huje green things with teeth Any kinds of black dogs with orange eyebrows Rains of spaniel's. fog. Mrs. Cake."
Third, I have once again commenced work on "Surrender!" Yes! It has finally happened! I finished fixing the first chapter and sent it to Marten and Alicia to beta. Alicia has responded, Marten has not. Alicia is the best beta EVER! She went through the whole thing and gave constructive and positive feedback about very specific things, and checked grammar, and color-coded! It was amazing! I'm having some trouble with the format of chapter two. I can't decide what I want to have happen from whose perspective. I'm working on it though. It includes an argument which I have scripted out. It's just the perspective thing. Grr. Still, I feel very accomplished.
Okay. Here is the real cause for this post-- Night Watch discussion with Alicia! Yay! It's like the Fifth Elephant Discussion only shorter and with Night Watch!
ERIN: Was Lady Roberta Messerole of Genua, aka "Madam", aka Vetinari's aunt, a seamstress (hem hem)? Or rather, as Vimes put it, in "bespoke tailoring," which I would take to mean that she's a madam of some sort of establishment? And exactly what part was she playing in the assassination of Lord Winder and his replacement with Lord Snapcase? And, subsequently, what was her role in Vetinari's ascension to the Patricianship? In short, what sort of... business... did she have in Ankh-Morpork?
And, if she was a lady of negotiable affection, could that be the reason Vetinari seems to be so sympathetic to those ladies during his Patricianship? Rosie-- er, Mrs. Palm-- seems to be rather fond of him. He did give them their guild.
ALICIA: I'm fairly certain that Madam is, or at least used to be, a seamstress. If so, she's definitely achieved Mrs. Palm's level of prestige or even higher. Maybe she's more like a formal courtesan, like in Siddhartha. Not sure about that one, but that was before the Guild, so perhaps that kind of seamstress existed then. As for her part in the assassination of Lord Winder, I have no idea. It seemed to me (at least on the surface) that she was simply a leader among a lot of the nobility, all of whom thought Lord Snapcase would be the better (or more convenient) Patrician. It seemed that she organized everything; whether or not she was the one who suggested it, I couldnt' say; but I do know that she pulled it off, with the maneuvering of guests (the white/pink/red dot passage) on the night of the assassination. I think her... business in Ankh-Morpork was just that, the conspiracy against Lord Winder. Maybe she had enough inside information on the influential men in the city that she was the ideal person to set up the assassination. And she happened to know a very talented assassin.
If Madam was a seamstress or notable courtesan, then that is why Vetinari was so generous to the seamstresses; and Mrs. Palm would definitely like anyone who gave her the Guild.
ERIN: "But I have spent a lot of time in Genua, where I have... business interests." Vimes believes that she means bespoke tailoring. And revolutionary.
"I have... business interests in Uberwald. Alas, the situation there is becoming quite unstable."
"Right. I see," said Vimes. "And you'd like to have the significant-pause type of business interests in Ankh-Morpork, I expect. If it can be stabilized."
Madam says that she thinks the city has a wonderful future and she would like to be a part of it.
So... does she have little pockets of seamstresses all across the map? Or is she just using the seamstresses for this particular revolution because she knows that they are particularly angry? Or did she plant the idea of a guild in their head in the first place? And does she cause political upheaval wherever she goes? Is that her sort of... business? I can believe that there is a guild in Genua, but not in Uberwald. I don't know, maybe there was before it became "unstable." But what would be her interest in this sort of thing? What is her involvement in the political arena? Is she doing this in Ankh-Morpork just for Havelock? So that he can become Patrician? She confuses me so. Help!
I can believe her having all the right information to influence the men of the city, though. She tried to get dirt on Vimes very quickly, and came up with the fact that he'd appeared out of nowhere.
I think she was more likely to be a courtesan of sorts... she tries to look more ladylike, so that she can pass in polite society, whereas the seamstresses such as Rosie Palm take great pains to look very cheap, so that everyone knows their chosen profession.
ALICIA: Madam is confusing. So far the only thing I can say about her definitely is that she's got to be a courtesan. She reminds me of Margolotta in a way, I guess because of her political meddling. Though Madam has an agenda of some sort, whereas I saw Margolotta as just savoring control.
ERIN: How much constant terror must Lord Downey be in nowadays, knowing that he once called Vetinari "a scag?"
ALICIA: Speaking of Dog-Botherer (I didn't get this joke until I realized you should pronounce Vetinari with an "a" like in . . . well, veterinary, as opposed to with an "a" as in car), poor Downey was must have quite uncomfortable. It's conveivable that he was the victim of some sort of blackmail or guilt-trip by Lord Vetinari. By the way, does Downey appear in any other books? Do we know that he is still alive and still a prominent citizen? And if so, *who* is he?
ERIN: The thing about Lord Downey is... he doesn't seem to have ever been blackmailed or threatened by Vetinari. He's head of the Assassins' Guild now. (See Men At Arms, Feet of Clay, Hogfather, probably some others, too). And Vetinari made him a Lord, because he was just Dr. Downey in MAA. So... I can imagine that Vetinari is must making him squirm, and the poor man is always slightly uncomfortable, waiting for the axe to drop. Poor guy. Vetinari is so awesome.
ALICIA: *Oh,* that's who Downey is. I imagine Vetinari amuses himself with smiling slyly or making ambiguous comments whenever he meets Downey. I don't see Vetinari as harboring a serious grudge over it, but Downey probably thinks he does. Vetinari probably just gets a kick out of it, and it probably helps in getting the Assassins' Guild to cooperate on certain matters.
ERIN: Did Vetinari have his sights set on the Patricianship back then, or did he hope to be an assassin, or what?
ALICIA: I have to say that Vetinari had his eye on the Patricianship. The way he flaunted the rules of the Assassins' Guild, like his habit of wearing dark greys or greens instead of the mandatory black, shows that he didn't have much respect for the sacred Guild policies. He had a better way of doing things. If he had wanted to be an assassin, he would have followed orders and regulations to the letter. In his stealth classes, he would have done things "properly" instead of perfectly -- he made that crack that his stealth instructor never saw him during lessons, so it seems that he didn't much care about his grades or reputation *as an assassin*, but wanted something much more. He used the method that worked, not the conventional one. Kind of like Ankh-Morpork. There's a thieves' guild, a beggar's guild, and a seamstress' guild, and that might be weird, but it works. On that basis, I conclude that he wanted to go all the way to the top.
I have a stupid question, but I just want to make sure. Vetinari *was* the assassin who killed Winder, right? It doesn't say, but I just assumed. ("Think of me as . . . your future.") Oh, and if that *was* Vetinari, that line i just quoted basically proves that he knew he would be Patrician sometime soon.
ERIN: I like your analysis of dear Havelock as compared to Ankh-Morpork. I was pretty sure Vetinari didn't want to be an assassin, I knew he wanted to be *something* more, I just wasn't sure it was something so high as the Patricianship. But good catch on that line when he assassinated Winder (yes, it was him). Now I am convinced. I actually didn't get that line at all until you pointed it out. I thought he just meant, I'm your death, or something. Like, I'm all that's in your future. But it probably means that and ALSO (I think it's ambiguous on purpose) that he was the future of the Patricianship. Brilliant.
ALICIA: I found a line that made me very sad: "He heard the sound of sobbing from further along the barricade. It wasn't young Sam, he knew, and Nobby Nobbs had probably cried all the tears a body was capable of some time ago." (p. 313). Awwww. Poor Nobby. I like the young Nobby. He carved a badge out of soap.
ERIN: That line is sad. Young Nobby is wonderful. I love him. I want to take him home and wash him.
ALICIA: I have a question. After Lord Snapcase became Patrician, what happened to make Vetinari the next Patrician?
ERIN: Considering the timeframe, I don't think Snapcase could have been Patrician very long. Just long enough for Vetinari to graduate assassin school and go to Uberwald and all, I think. I'm going to have to look it up and see if I can find out what happened to him. The Companion is telling me that he was called both Mad Lord Snapcase and Psychoneurotic Lord Snapcase, and that he liked to have criminals torn to pieces by wild horses. That's all I'm finding. I imagine Snapcase was killed or otherwise removed from office, as the Patricianship is an appointment for life.
So, yeah. There you go. We didn't come to any actual conclusions about Madam, though (and it's spelled "Meserole," I've recently realized). So, if anyone has any thoughts on her, please share!
Second, I now have Going Postal, the new Discworld book! I've started it; it is awesome. Vetinari is in it a lot. The main character's name is Moist. It's about the post office. Their slogan was in MAA, but it's in here a lot, and I still love it: "NEITHER RAIN NOR SNOW NOR GLO M OF NI T CAN STAY THESE MES ENGERS ABO T THEIR DUTY. Don't Arsk Us About: rocks troll's with sticks All sorts of dragons Mrs Cake Huje green things with teeth Any kinds of black dogs with orange eyebrows Rains of spaniel's. fog. Mrs. Cake."
Third, I have once again commenced work on "Surrender!" Yes! It has finally happened! I finished fixing the first chapter and sent it to Marten and Alicia to beta. Alicia has responded, Marten has not. Alicia is the best beta EVER! She went through the whole thing and gave constructive and positive feedback about very specific things, and checked grammar, and color-coded! It was amazing! I'm having some trouble with the format of chapter two. I can't decide what I want to have happen from whose perspective. I'm working on it though. It includes an argument which I have scripted out. It's just the perspective thing. Grr. Still, I feel very accomplished.
Okay. Here is the real cause for this post-- Night Watch discussion with Alicia! Yay! It's like the Fifth Elephant Discussion only shorter and with Night Watch!
ERIN: Was Lady Roberta Messerole of Genua, aka "Madam", aka Vetinari's aunt, a seamstress (hem hem)? Or rather, as Vimes put it, in "bespoke tailoring," which I would take to mean that she's a madam of some sort of establishment? And exactly what part was she playing in the assassination of Lord Winder and his replacement with Lord Snapcase? And, subsequently, what was her role in Vetinari's ascension to the Patricianship? In short, what sort of... business... did she have in Ankh-Morpork?
And, if she was a lady of negotiable affection, could that be the reason Vetinari seems to be so sympathetic to those ladies during his Patricianship? Rosie-- er, Mrs. Palm-- seems to be rather fond of him. He did give them their guild.
ALICIA: I'm fairly certain that Madam is, or at least used to be, a seamstress. If so, she's definitely achieved Mrs. Palm's level of prestige or even higher. Maybe she's more like a formal courtesan, like in Siddhartha. Not sure about that one, but that was before the Guild, so perhaps that kind of seamstress existed then. As for her part in the assassination of Lord Winder, I have no idea. It seemed to me (at least on the surface) that she was simply a leader among a lot of the nobility, all of whom thought Lord Snapcase would be the better (or more convenient) Patrician. It seemed that she organized everything; whether or not she was the one who suggested it, I couldnt' say; but I do know that she pulled it off, with the maneuvering of guests (the white/pink/red dot passage) on the night of the assassination. I think her... business in Ankh-Morpork was just that, the conspiracy against Lord Winder. Maybe she had enough inside information on the influential men in the city that she was the ideal person to set up the assassination. And she happened to know a very talented assassin.
If Madam was a seamstress or notable courtesan, then that is why Vetinari was so generous to the seamstresses; and Mrs. Palm would definitely like anyone who gave her the Guild.
ERIN: "But I have spent a lot of time in Genua, where I have... business interests." Vimes believes that she means bespoke tailoring. And revolutionary.
"I have... business interests in Uberwald. Alas, the situation there is becoming quite unstable."
"Right. I see," said Vimes. "And you'd like to have the significant-pause type of business interests in Ankh-Morpork, I expect. If it can be stabilized."
Madam says that she thinks the city has a wonderful future and she would like to be a part of it.
So... does she have little pockets of seamstresses all across the map? Or is she just using the seamstresses for this particular revolution because she knows that they are particularly angry? Or did she plant the idea of a guild in their head in the first place? And does she cause political upheaval wherever she goes? Is that her sort of... business? I can believe that there is a guild in Genua, but not in Uberwald. I don't know, maybe there was before it became "unstable." But what would be her interest in this sort of thing? What is her involvement in the political arena? Is she doing this in Ankh-Morpork just for Havelock? So that he can become Patrician? She confuses me so. Help!
I can believe her having all the right information to influence the men of the city, though. She tried to get dirt on Vimes very quickly, and came up with the fact that he'd appeared out of nowhere.
I think she was more likely to be a courtesan of sorts... she tries to look more ladylike, so that she can pass in polite society, whereas the seamstresses such as Rosie Palm take great pains to look very cheap, so that everyone knows their chosen profession.
ALICIA: Madam is confusing. So far the only thing I can say about her definitely is that she's got to be a courtesan. She reminds me of Margolotta in a way, I guess because of her political meddling. Though Madam has an agenda of some sort, whereas I saw Margolotta as just savoring control.
ERIN: How much constant terror must Lord Downey be in nowadays, knowing that he once called Vetinari "a scag?"
ALICIA: Speaking of Dog-Botherer (I didn't get this joke until I realized you should pronounce Vetinari with an "a" like in . . . well, veterinary, as opposed to with an "a" as in car), poor Downey was must have quite uncomfortable. It's conveivable that he was the victim of some sort of blackmail or guilt-trip by Lord Vetinari. By the way, does Downey appear in any other books? Do we know that he is still alive and still a prominent citizen? And if so, *who* is he?
ERIN: The thing about Lord Downey is... he doesn't seem to have ever been blackmailed or threatened by Vetinari. He's head of the Assassins' Guild now. (See Men At Arms, Feet of Clay, Hogfather, probably some others, too). And Vetinari made him a Lord, because he was just Dr. Downey in MAA. So... I can imagine that Vetinari is must making him squirm, and the poor man is always slightly uncomfortable, waiting for the axe to drop. Poor guy. Vetinari is so awesome.
ALICIA: *Oh,* that's who Downey is. I imagine Vetinari amuses himself with smiling slyly or making ambiguous comments whenever he meets Downey. I don't see Vetinari as harboring a serious grudge over it, but Downey probably thinks he does. Vetinari probably just gets a kick out of it, and it probably helps in getting the Assassins' Guild to cooperate on certain matters.
ERIN: Did Vetinari have his sights set on the Patricianship back then, or did he hope to be an assassin, or what?
ALICIA: I have to say that Vetinari had his eye on the Patricianship. The way he flaunted the rules of the Assassins' Guild, like his habit of wearing dark greys or greens instead of the mandatory black, shows that he didn't have much respect for the sacred Guild policies. He had a better way of doing things. If he had wanted to be an assassin, he would have followed orders and regulations to the letter. In his stealth classes, he would have done things "properly" instead of perfectly -- he made that crack that his stealth instructor never saw him during lessons, so it seems that he didn't much care about his grades or reputation *as an assassin*, but wanted something much more. He used the method that worked, not the conventional one. Kind of like Ankh-Morpork. There's a thieves' guild, a beggar's guild, and a seamstress' guild, and that might be weird, but it works. On that basis, I conclude that he wanted to go all the way to the top.
I have a stupid question, but I just want to make sure. Vetinari *was* the assassin who killed Winder, right? It doesn't say, but I just assumed. ("Think of me as . . . your future.") Oh, and if that *was* Vetinari, that line i just quoted basically proves that he knew he would be Patrician sometime soon.
ERIN: I like your analysis of dear Havelock as compared to Ankh-Morpork. I was pretty sure Vetinari didn't want to be an assassin, I knew he wanted to be *something* more, I just wasn't sure it was something so high as the Patricianship. But good catch on that line when he assassinated Winder (yes, it was him). Now I am convinced. I actually didn't get that line at all until you pointed it out. I thought he just meant, I'm your death, or something. Like, I'm all that's in your future. But it probably means that and ALSO (I think it's ambiguous on purpose) that he was the future of the Patricianship. Brilliant.
ALICIA: I found a line that made me very sad: "He heard the sound of sobbing from further along the barricade. It wasn't young Sam, he knew, and Nobby Nobbs had probably cried all the tears a body was capable of some time ago." (p. 313). Awwww. Poor Nobby. I like the young Nobby. He carved a badge out of soap.
ERIN: That line is sad. Young Nobby is wonderful. I love him. I want to take him home and wash him.
ALICIA: I have a question. After Lord Snapcase became Patrician, what happened to make Vetinari the next Patrician?
ERIN: Considering the timeframe, I don't think Snapcase could have been Patrician very long. Just long enough for Vetinari to graduate assassin school and go to Uberwald and all, I think. I'm going to have to look it up and see if I can find out what happened to him. The Companion is telling me that he was called both Mad Lord Snapcase and Psychoneurotic Lord Snapcase, and that he liked to have criminals torn to pieces by wild horses. That's all I'm finding. I imagine Snapcase was killed or otherwise removed from office, as the Patricianship is an appointment for life.
So, yeah. There you go. We didn't come to any actual conclusions about Madam, though (and it's spelled "Meserole," I've recently realized). So, if anyone has any thoughts on her, please share!