Define "work"

[lillibet]

Elsewhere, someone was discussing the work that he and his partner are doing to improve/sustain their relationship and someone else commented that if a relationship requires work, then it may not be worth continuing. This led into a discussion of what defines "work," more generally. If you enjoy a process, is it work? If you choose to do

Comments

[dpolicar]

I'd say it's "work" if you're doing it because you want the results, rather than because you want the experience of doing it.

That said, sometimes what one wants is the experience of doing work, which would make a hash of my formulation. But I still think I have the right basic idea.

BTW, I'm inclined to disagree with the idea that a relationship that requires work isn't worth continuing. I know, you're shocked.

[androidqueen]

i like that definition.

also, i agree with your assertion about relationships and work. i'll stop before i say something rude.

[lillibet]

I'd say it's "work" if you're doing it because you want the results, rather than because you want the experience of doing it.

What if you want both? I throw out cooking as a possible example, at least in certain cases.

[dpolicar]

A fine question.

I'd say that to the extent that you're doing it only because you want the results, it's work to that extent. If you'd miss nothing about the activity were the results handed to you, it's pure work. If you'd miss certain aspects of it but not others, it's partially work. If you'd miss the whole thing, it's not work at all.

There are certainly perplexing boundary cases like deciding in retrospect that something that "seemed like work at the time" really wasn't, or vice versa.

Cooking is a funny one for me, in that I sometimes enjoy the experience, and sometimes merely the results, but I'm also aware that if I spend long enough away from it I suffer emotionally. Which to my mind makes it two kinds of work - one gustatory, one therapeutic - as well as, in some aspects, play.

Excerpts from IM, Part I

[lillibet]

dpolicar: I mean, certainly I would respond differently if someone said "If keeping a relationship going is "just a job", it's probably not worth continuing."
dpolicar: And "work" and "just a job" are not _vastly_ different things.
lillibettt: one point that i brought up is that i wonder to what degree we have begun to use the word "work" in order to accord the effort one puts into relationships more respect
dpolicar: Sure.
lillibettt: i wonder how much my parents' work influenced my ideas about work
dpolicar: Another similar word in the cluster is "chore".
lillibettt: yes, which i think definitely has negative connotations
dpolicar: : nods.
lillibettt: it was interesting, early in our conversation she made the sudden jump from "work" to "hard work" and seemed surprised when i called her on it and wanted to make a distinction
dpolicar: sure... that's another good one.
dpolicar: I'd be interested to introduce "satisfying work" to see how she jumped.
dpolicar: As well as "life's work"
dpolicar: Now you've got me running through this

Excerpts from IM, Part 2

[lillibet]

dpolicar: I often approach this from the pov of "hard".
dpolicar: Which is one of my favorite English homonyms.
lillibettt: oh, re: cooking, the example i was specifically considering was a project in which one is attempting a new technique while making dinner
lillibettt: "hard" ?
dpolicar: There's a better word for that than homonym but I've forgotten what it is.
dpolicar: "hard" = "requiring effort" vs "having significant chance of failure" vs. both.
dpolicar: I run into this at work a lot.
dpolicar: It's important to know which kind of hard problem you're facing, and people just report that it's a hard problem.
lillibettt: hunh--i don't usually think about the second connotation at all
lillibettt: that's not what "hard" means to me
dpolicar: I hear a lot of people say "that's a hard problem" roughly synonymously with "that's a tricky problem".
lillibettt: yes, i think they're very close to synonymous
dpolicar: As in, your initial answers are likely to be wrong.
lillibettt: hunh--that's not what "tricky" means to me, either

Re: Excerpts from IM, Part 2

[pekmez]

Wow. I think very differently about what "hard" and "work" when it comes to engineering-type things: "hard" is when there is a significant chance

Excerpts from IM, Part 3

[lillibet]

dpolicar: I do certainly acknowledge the ability to have grace without skill.
lillibettt: i find myself wanting to say that i don't relate effort and success very much, but that seems like such an odd thing to say that i'm going to have to ponder it more before i let it out
dpolicar: Like mastering a native accent in a language you don't spoeak.
dpolicar: Well, they are often unrelated.
dpolicar: One can devote enormous effort without increasing one's chance of success.
lillibettt: right--trying hard often has nothing to do with success/failure
dpolicar: exactly.
lillibettt: and that's where skill or talent come in
dpolicar: and in our experience as clever people in a mechanized society, trying hard is often a sign that you're doing it wrong and are going to break something.
lillibettt: interesting point
dpolicar: skill, or talent, or creativity, or various other things... yes.
dpolicar: Farming is hard, and hostage negotiations are hard, but they have almost no hardness in common. Farming is effortful, hostage negotiations are

Re: Excerpts from IM, Part 3

[muffyjo]

(Spicy brains, indeed! God I love this