Geek Syndicate Julian Jones Interview
I was bored, so I transcribed the latest Geek Syndicate interview that winwin7 posted recently. I removed most of the stuttering, you knows, I means, and erms, so it's not technically verbatim, but it's as close as I could coherently make it. Things I couldn't understand are marked [...]
Barry: Hi there, and welcome to this special Merlin episode of Geeks Syndicate. Unfortunately Dave can’t join us this week. His, er, it-- well, he has no - to put too fine a point on it. Until that time, I caught up with Julian Jones, writer and co-creator of Merlin, which is starting back on BBC1 this Saturday to chat about season 4, and kind of just to look at a look forward, and kind of a little look back at season 3 and some questions from you guys. So, erm, over to Julie.
[intro music]
Barry: Well, anyway, we’re not here to talk about me, we’re here to talk about you and Merlin.
Julian: Well, talk about series 4, you know, which is kicking off on Saturday, and they’ve kept that a bit of a secret from all of us. It just keeps coming up on the TV, you know, "Coming soon, coming soon." (Barry laughs) "Merlin coming soon." But it’s actually coming this Saturday, which is, erm, which is good, ‘cause you want to get it out there and get on with it. And so it’ll run right up until, I believe Christmas Eve, which is quite nice. It’s not-- nothing going out at Christmas, and that’ll be nice.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: So…
Barry: And it’s also, erm, I mean, I’m not sure the exact timings of it. Does it show before or after Doctor Who?
Julian: Well, it’s gonna show-Doctor -- this is the last episode of Doctor Who--
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: So I think their idea is, you know, go out-Doctor Who finishes, and then just go straight into this first episode. And I think that it’s gonna air a lot later than probably the other episodes. They keep always moving it around on a Saturday night.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: […] a consistent time slot. But I think the first episode in particular, er, it’s probably appropriate, because it is…it is a dark opening the episode. We’ve gone very dark. And you’re sort of hoping then that you’re not going to have the young - if the younger children are staying up to watch it, then you're hoping their parents are going to be there, because, er, yeah. I think they’ve gone as dark as we can go. Obviously, as the series progresses, the sun begins to shine, and, you know, we get all the fun that we get in a normal series of Merlin. But we ended the last season after returning the knights of Camelot to, erm, get rid of our dear old friend, Morgana.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: And we start this new series, and she’s still out there, and she’s just, you know, her powers have grown.
Barry: Well, I saw-- I went to-- well, we met very briefly at the big screen. You guys turned up and you kind of showed some clips from season 4, and it was a trailer and whatever, which, you know, all looked stunning, I’ve gotta say. All looked really epic. And one of the clips was of Morgana, and, yeah, she-- (laughs) any kind of idea that, "No, she’s not really that evil anymore," is completely gone from that clip I saw.
Julian: Oh, yeah. Yes.
Barry: I mean, she’s fully dark side now.
Julian: Yeah, she is. She’s in cracking form, and you know, Morgause was a-- is a brilliant villain, but Morgana really moves us onto another level, which then Merlin, as her adversary, he’s got to step up to another level. So, it’s really important that you-- that we have a very strong villain at this point, because, as we want to move the series on, then, in a way, she drives it. She drives it. She gives different stakes. And I’m glad you mentioned the fact that you thought that it looked more epic. I think that we’ve worked hard on that, and certainly the production team have, you know, have really been pushed, much more the location staff, and we’re shooting on 35mill, and there’s a lot more CGI. So, a lot more green screen, and some vast interiors they’ve created. So, it is getting more and more filmic.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: And it’s no good just doing that in isolation. You’ve got to have the stories to fit that on, and I think that the stories that we’ve got, not that I think we’ve had, you know, mingers in the past, but we’ve (laughs) I think that every one of these is a cracking story.
Barry: Right.
Julian: And it’s just been one of those things that every single episode has just had a-- we’ve had great ideas from the start, and everybody’s really-- all the writers’ve really delivered. And each time you’ve thought, “That’s a" -- each time we do a block of two or three episodes, so we’re filming those at the same time, and each block comes in and you look at the-- you go to the read through and you think, “Wow, that’s a good episode.” And then we read the next one, you go, “You know, that one’s, that’s a darn good episode as well,” and, yeah, it’s been very exciting. Really, really good. You know, you could get to season 4 and think, “Mmm, well, we’ve run out of ideas,” and I think, if anything, it’s the opposite. You know, now you’ve really-we’ve seemed to have created a space where we can tell richer and richer stories. So, erm, yeah, it’s been fantastic, and this year’s just gone so quickly, that’s, you know, really what I feel.
Barry: Well, one of the questions I was going to ask you is kind of like you’ve done. You’ve got three series under your belt. And obviously-- you’ve obviously worked with series four, but, you know, kind of going-- taking a step back: when you rounded up series three and you were moving onto series four, and doing the scripts for series four, did you find it easier when you came to prep series four because of all the kind of work you’d already done, or was it again that kind of difficult getting back into it, because you’re upping the stakes of each series?
Julian: For me, and I think I’m probably speaking for everyone, I can remember going back to probably almost a time last year-- probably another month-- it’s about another month we start talking who will sit down together and throw in our ideas for the next series and sit ‘round our sort of Arthurian, erm, Round Table.
Barry: (laughs)
Julian: I can remember that point, and we just seem to very quickly instinctively know what this series was about. We’d set up so many things, and I-you know, it just felt very good from the start. I think the only thing was, initially the BBC were talking to us about maybe doing a run of ten--
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: And then they later came back to us and said 13. So we had our-we had a very clear idea of where the ten were and we were working towards that and it’s fantastic they came back and said 13, because exactly right, we were doing 13 before.
Barry: Mm-hmm.
Julian: So then we had to sort of move a few things around, and that was a bit tricky. […] are shooting forwards, and so suddenly we were back in that position of everything being a bit “Oh, my god!” you know “It’s on top of us!” but in terms of coming in and doing the show and thinking, “What’s gonna happen next?” I think the hardest time was probably after season one, because going into season one, I think we-because you’ve got that whole business of pitching an idea to the BBC--
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: And then developing it, erm, we knew what it was about. And it had quite a big built up. Although, things changed, of course they did, in conversation with BBC, and in conversation with each other and understanding the animal. We probably didn’t understand it until we were, you know-- nearly had shot the first three episodes. There were things that we were learning. So, we came into season two, and I think then that was much more of a question where we-- “That’s gone reasonably well, how do we, you know, where do we go from there?” and we didn’t want to rush too far into the legend. We wanted to keep lots of things. I think season two was probably the hardest in that respect because we’d put a lot of energy into setting it up and then it’s, “Well, where do we go?” But I think there’s a real confidence about the show and everyone involved in it feels confident now. We know what it’s about. We know what we want to do. And there just seemed to be idea after idea was put on the table and they were all ones that you wanted to snatch up and run with. So, yeah, as I say, I think that Johnny and Julian, the producers, have got a very clear handle on what they’re doing.
Barry: Mmm.
Julian: So you feel very confident about throwing ideas in and everybody knows where they’re going. It’s-- it was a very positive start to a series, which is exactly what you need.
Barry: Mmm.
Julian: And I think that confidence is there and hopefully will be on the screen throughout.
[09:30]
Barry: Now, in terms of planning series four, and obviously, you guys have now had series five confirmed.
Julian: Yeah.
Barry: And congratulations on series five.
Julian: Thank you very much.
Barry: Now, did that impact on your planning for series four in terms of knowing that you’ve definitely got a series five coming after? Because I know with other shows, when they’ve got that kind of not-quite-sure they’re going to get another series, there’s almost a certain limit of, like, trying to make it a little bit self-contained?
Julian: That is the difficulty of the process in that, you’re coming to your episode 13, and you’re not sure whether you’re gonna get another season. It’s very, very difficult, because you think, “Well, you got these stories to tell, is it the moment to tell them? Do I go to the big ending now?” And then find, "Oh, no, we’re coming back again," and then you go, “Well, where do I go from there?”
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: Or do you hold it back? And then you don’t give it the big ending and it kind of just peters out. I-- We had this problem on a show called Hex, which we did.
Barry: Oh, yeah.
Julian: And we, you know, well, is it coming back or isn’t it? And what kind of an ending? And-- So, it’s really good for us to know that we’ve got the next season, because we don’t have that uncertainty. We can be incredibly confident about where we get to. We don’t have to get to our-we don’t have to suddenly go, “Well, this has got to have to be a big completion that we’ve rounded off this wonderful series. We don’t have that. We know exactly-- that we’re gonna get another series. So we can just have fun and then tee up ready for that next season five.
Barry: Mmm.
Julian: Which I hope we’ve done. I mean, we’re filming, er, or just f- we don’t film-- Although we’re still filming, we don’t film the last episode in the last block, because the last episode is always massive.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: So we’ve got so much post-production to do, in terms of CGI, that we have to film it a lot earlier. So, that’s just finishing filming at the moment. Although the cast and crew continue, and they’ll film some of the extras that’ll go out earlier now. But we’re just, as I said, finished shooting. And episode 13: it’s massive. It’s really-- it’s fantastic, you know, it’s a two parter.
Barry: Okay.
Julian: Erm, and I’ve split that with Jake Mickey who’s the other-- the co-creator.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: And he introduces a couple of characters in 12, Tristan and Isolde. It’s-- I mean, the story isn't really like some Mr and Mrs Smith with, erm...
Barry: Oh yeah.
Julian: Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie. I mean, that is not the story. But if you can kind of imagine you've got [...] those characters there--
Barry: Right
Julian: There's just something about them that reminds me of that film. Anyhow, you know, I kicked-- he kicks off 12 with them and I pick them up in 13. And 13 is-- it's one of those iconic eps and, as I say, we're not gonna [...] to pull the plug on it, so we just go for one of those really big eps. Pick up something from the legend--
Barry: Right.
Julian: And bring it to life in our own, hopefully slightly unique way, and it's one of those eps. So it's-- If we thought that we were rounding everything off [...] we wouldn't be able to do that because you know you have to have some kind of conclusion.
Barry: I was gonna say, 'cause I suppose you've got less time to play with then, haven't you? If you've got to sort of move towards a conclusion as such.
Julian: Exactly. Exactly. And what we do is we hopefully tee up season 5 really well. and what we've given the audience is one of those moments that they've all been-- it's one of those moments from the legend that everyone's been waiting for. Obviously we're gonna do it in our own way because you can't repeat what everyone's done before because otherwise it wouldn't be interesting. You want to have that moment that if you don't know anything about the Arthurian legend, you'll enjoy it, but if you know something about the Arthurian legend, you've ever seen any of the films before, read any of the books, you'll go, "Well, that's one of the big moments," and you'll enjoy it because we've done it with a little twist. So, I mean, I can't wait for episode 13, but you know what? I can't wait for all the episodes along the way (Barry laughs), so...
[14:11]
Barry: It's always [...] talking to you anyway Julie. But one of the things I think that you guys always do really well, kind of going back to the kind of having to conclude every series, is the fact that I always love your series openers and I always love your series finales because you're always able to kind of build up and you're able to conclude your stories in such a way that you could turn around and go, "Well that's it for Merlin, we didn't get another series," and I could sit there and quite happily feel that I've been given a conclusion that I'm happy with.
Julian: Right.
Barry: So that it doesn't end on a cliffhanger and you're kind of left thinking, "I wonder how it would've ended. I wonder if Merlin would've ended this way or..."
Julian: Yeah.
Barry: And I think you always did it really well, and I think the last-- the series 3 finale I just thought was awesome-- with the shot with the knights coming back and sort of Arthur there with Guinevere and you had a little chat with Merlin, and obviously Uther's not really playing with a full deck anymore.
Julian: (laughs)
Barry: Yes, okay, you could argue that, yes, Arthur's not king yet, and yes, he doesn't know about Merlin, but all the builder blocks were there, everything was kind of in place so if you'd ended it there, I could've quite happily gone away and think, "Well, you know, probably the next day he would've become king anyway, because Uther was, you know..."
Julian: (chuckles) Yeah.
Barry: So I was kind of quite happy with that, but obviously I'm very excited that you move it into series four, but it's one of those things that I think you guys at Merlin do really well with your season finales. The series finales, should I say.
Julian: I certainly felt-- and I think we all shared was the looking back on season one, which seems a long time ago, we had a big ending there in season one and I think then it was the idea that, "Oh we got there, we want to pick it up at the same level." Do you know what I mean?
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: We want to-- so that it's not that we go all the way up there and then we go, "Oh well, let's go back and just do some regular episodes where he messes around with a couple of trolls at the beginning of the next season." You know, we want to-- we took it to an epic level, and so that's the kind of-- instead of coming back and going down, we just always try to lift it. We try to go that much further. And the first thing that we say at the beginning of the season is "Right, well, that's where we were, how can we go one better?"
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: If, in my old age, when I sit down one day to look at the whole thing back to back, I hope that it's a sort of unrelenting kind of escalation of--
Barry: Of darkness. (laughs)
Julian: (laughs) Of darkness, of jeopardy, and that we just kept constantly improved and I think we have taken a risk with this opening episode. I know that I went to the screening that [...] told me was on the wrong day and I got all very nervous about--
Barry: Yeah, it wasn't a plan or anything. It wasn't a plan.
Julian: No, no, I'm only messing about. I'm only messing about. [...] (Barry laughing) Am I going the wrong day? or am I going on another day? But I went to see that, and I think I was probably the most, kind of, unsure as I sat down in my seat as to what the reaction would be and how it would all work because it is dark and it's got a lot of those moments that hopefully will make you kind of jump a bit, and erm, and I didn't know how it would pan out. But judging by the audience there, it went really well. So, it's not only just about making it darker, but it's also challenging ourselves to try and push things in different directions and--
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: and see how we-- and that's what we're always going to do I suppose. But that doesn't mean that we don't get the other end of it, you don't kind of go (sucks in breath) did that work? But hopefully it did.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: You can be the judge of it on Saturday, or whenever you, you know, whenever you get to watch it.
Barry: Oh, it will be Saturday, mate, don't worry about that.
Julian: (laughs)
[18: 38]
Barry: Just kind of getting into the meat of some of the characters a little bit for series four...
Julian: Yeah.
Barry: What are the big changes to-- at the end of series three, erm I was most excited about was kind of the introduction of the knights of Camelot. Now, I know we've had-- I know you always see knights, kind of, with Arthur, for me it was really great to kind of see, kind of Lancelot and the other guy-- and Gwaine, and the other guys in there at the end. I'm assuming these guys are coming back now as kind of main characters?
Julian: Yeah, I think that going on from that the last episode is three, yeah, you know, that was the Arthur getting his Knights of the Round Table together.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: And that's a big thing that happens in this season, and we develop-- we give more to all the knights now. We've got Percival who was introduced right at the end there. We've got Elyan, Gwen's brother, and we bring back Lancelot, which is really important for this season. We got Gwaine as well, who I think the audience have taken to as a bit of sort of fun to the mix.
Barry: Merlin's [...]. (Julian laughs) He's great.
Julian: Yeah, he is. They've all got their own distinct, erm...
Barry: Yeah. Yeah.
Julian: Little things that they bring to it. And so, yeah, I think that Sir Leon has been one of the characters that has grown on everyone. We've seen how the audience responded to him. And it is lovely to, pardon the pun, bring him to the table and he's there, and so he's got stuff to do. And I think it's great for Arthur that he's got the knights. I think that's really helpful.
[20:41]
Barry: Yeah. Now, you kind of mentioned Arthur, Guinevere, and Lancelot.
Julian: Ah, yes.
Barry: Now, you know, I can't leave-- I can't leave that one alone. So, (Julian clears his throat) and you've mentioned Lancelot is quite important in this series. Now, obviously, I mean, people I find weird, people asked specific questions about specific things happening in a series which hasn't been shown yet. I don't necessarily want-- I more want hints here. I don't want to be spoiled.
Julian: Yeah, I mean, I'm not gonna give away any real spoilers, well, I hope not. See, they might slip out, that's always the danger. We've got a great story for Lancelot. He starts in our-- that really starts in our first episode. And I'll just say that the triangle with Gwen and Arthur has got some great twists in it. Gwen's character really progresses. Angel is, you know, she's a brilliant actress, and I think that, yeah, she's got a great, great journey to go on this season. I think that's probably all that I would be permitted to say at this point.
Barry: Okay.
Julian: But it is one of the-- it is a big arc within season four.
Barry: Right, okay. I'll stay around. (Julian laughs)
Julian: And I think the people who are interested in that story won't be disappointed.
Barry: Okay. In terms of Journeys, 'cause you just mentioned Guinevere, one of the questions I was goiing to ask you was, sort of besides Merlin and Arthur, 'cause, to a certain extent, they always go on a journey in each series, what character besides those two would you say, in terms of writing scripts and whatever, would you say goes on the biggest journey in this series?
Julian: You know, if you would've asked me this question before, I would've said in some way that Gwen does. And, yeah, I think that, in some ways Morgana as well. We tried to give both the women stronger roles within the show, and that's not just from a sort of political point of view, but I think that they've earned that, and I hope that's been rewarded. Yes, Arthur has-- and I know you'll say, "Oh, well, yeah, of course they're gonna go on journeys," but I think Arthur, he steps up to the plate. And I've probably used that line before about him, but he's constantly-- you go back to the prince that you meet in episode one, season one, you know, he's a bit of a buffoon, a bit of an arrogant [...] an he's becoming more of a rounded man and going to be that you can see him becoming the legendary king, and I think that Merlin's character echoes all of that. He's there always at his side and they go through a lot together, and I think their friendship really grows. it's difficult because they are the heart of the show.
Barry: Yeah.
[23:55]
Julian: We bring in another character, Agravaine.
Barry: Yes. I was gonna ask you about him, actually.
Julian: Yeah, he's Arthur's uncle.
Barry: Right.
Julian: And, well, you know I mean, he’s-he totally pitches up and he does influencing things that happen within Camelot. And erm, it’s just-I can’t-I don’t know what you’re-It’s very difficult. I don’t want to ruin anything for anybody.
Barry: I was gonna say, put it this way: looking at the pictures of him and the little clip of him in the trailer, he looks dodgy to me.
Julian: (laughs)
Barry: (laughs) I mean, that’s not really a spoiler. He just looks dodgy to me. He might be a lovely bloke, Julie. He could be a lovely bloke, but he looks dodgy.
Julian: He might be. He might be that wonderful, long lost uncle that turns up that you always wished you had.
Barry: Hmm.
Julian: But he might not be.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: Who knows? (They laugh) Yeah, I don’t know. I’m trying to think of all the questions in terms of the characters but I think that, as I say, the main-the heart of it, is the two women definitely come on and the triangle are the big things in that respect.
[25:06]
Barry: Okay. Now, actually, yeah, a couple questions I had, we’ve got some fan questions, but a couple of questions that I had that are quite recent stuff. I was just actually on Digital Spy website, or whatever
Julian: Right.
Barry: Angel had just said, I think you said you come on about half an hour ago. She-well, they’ve said that she suggested that the show will end after the fifth series.
Julian: Well, I think that there’s always-when we pitched the show, we pitched it as five seasons.
Barry: Yes.
Julian: Which was kind of a bit of, it was showing our confidence.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: And certainly for the expenditure that was needed for a show like this, you-people wanted that kind of ambition. And we were saying, “Well, we’ve got a big story to tell, and we’ve got the legs for this.” So, at the start, five seasons was quite a lot to be pitching, and it would’ve been arrogant to ask for anything more. So, that was always where we started, and lo and behold, we’re now talking about season five.
Barry: Mmm.
Julian: What happens then, I don’t know if anything has been decided. Maybe she’s talk to the BBC or somebody, but I really-I don’t think-I think it’s probably just that that’s what we’ve always talked about.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: Because we needed to be talking to the actors and saying, “Well, we’ve got a show, and isn’t gonna be just gonna come in for a few weeks. You know, we intend for these characters to run five seasons, and that is what we’ll tell the BBC.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: So, this is a big show. And you have to make that clear to the actors at the beginning, because some people don’t want to be involved in a show that’s gonna continue.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: And so, therefore, you know at that point, well-had that kind of situation with Hex. Lost our lead actress after season one, and that’s very, very difficult. So, you want to make it very clear to people because a show that’s gonna be coming back for a good long while. So, we’ve always said five seasons, and I think that’s where that notion has-I think that’s probably public knowledge. That’s always been around. So, I don’t know if that’s come out of that, but I’m- it’s not something that I’m aware of beyond that. Does that make sense?
Barry: Yeah, no, that makes perfect sense. No, no, the five series - I mean, I’ve always known that, because we’ve always talked about that when we’ve spoken to you. And I think--
Julian: Right.
Barry: But I suppose my question would be, if you were given the opportunity to do a sixth series, would you go for it?
Julian: Well, I love the show. So, I would definitely go for it. And I think my only-the only thing that I wouldn’t want to do would be to dilute the show. I think we’ve got something that is, I hope, really good. It’s very special to me. I hope it’s special to lots of other people. And I do hate it when shows go on and they haven’t got stories to tell, and it’s run its course and then people start milking it. And I think that-I very much hope that everyone involved in it would not do that. So, you know, if it’s got the legs for another season then I would love to do it.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: But I want to make sure that this-that we ne-that the standards never drop. And if we can’t keep moving it on, then I’d rather leave it with people wanting more than take it to a point-- I think we can all think of shows where you go, “Oh, I used to love this show, but I can’t watch it anymore.”
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: It almost makes you sad. It makes you sad because you kind of-that’s how it sort of-it’s like a relationship that’s gone on too long and (Barry laughs) you remember the bad stuff and not the good times.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: So, I want to-I know that that’s-knowing Johnny and Julian, I know that we would always want to leave this as a good memory for everybody. Everyone going, “You know what? That was really good.” And it was cracking TV, and it’d be something that people’d be slightly sad that they hadn’t seen it again, but it would be a good kind of sad because-I’d rather, if that was the case, I’d rather know what was happening and go “Do you know what? We’re gonna go out with a massive bang. And that’s gonna be it, and we’re gonna go out on a monster, monster episode.” Those are discussions that are probably well beyond me. (Barry laughs) That’s my own sense of…
[29:50]
Barry: Erm, okay, right. We’ve got a couple of fan questions.
Julian: Yes.
Barry: First off, we’ve got a question from a Robin Kolkof, I hope I’ve said her name right.
Julian: Yes.
Barry: And she’s asking, what creature has been hardest to do by CGI?
Julian: Well, that’s not really my department. So, I-but she wouldn’t necessarily have known that, but I don’t-there’s a massive team of people that do the CGI, and I know that probably when we first started, the idea of the dragon was incredibly hard, and it’s incredibly important for the show that that works, and it’s our first introduction into a real kind of mythical character. And we had very little idea how to do that. So, I think everything that we’ve learnt has really come from that, among the special effects guys work on a lot of the films and even in the last four years, things have really moved on. But getting that dragon right was very, very hard. These people, they know all about anatomy, so if we ever come up with a monster or we find a monster that’s been written about, and you read about things and they’re three legged monsters, that’s damn hard. You know, you can come up with that idea, but making a three legged monster walk is very, very difficult. And these people will go away and try and find an animal that has a similar kind of anatomy and then base it on that. So, all of them are quite hard, but for me I think the hardest, although not really a monster, could be a monster depending on your view, it was the Great Dragon, because you’ve got a sense of getting the scale right. And the Great Dragon has to talk. And to do that, John Hurt has to go in there and the whole business of having loads of different pads on his face so that the-that it is his movement of his face and the way he says the lines, that gives the expression to the dragon. So, for me, I think that that was probably the hardest. And scripting the dragon was difficult because you want to be able to have a conversation with Merlin, but you know that there has to be-this has to have a kind of, a weight, a sort of a legendary weight. So all of that was very difficult, and we were all learning. I think the monsters have got a lot better.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: Some of the monsters in the early eps I don’t think would stand up in a battle against the latest monsters.
[32:50]
Barry: (laughs) Actually, a question that she has got, which will be right up your street is what is your favorite line out of all of the series and which character says it?
Julian: Oh, god! You know what? I’m so terrible on all of that. Did you know? It’s funny you should say that, but I don’t know. There are a few lines in the opening episode that do make me cringe. I think that-I’m trying to think of a favorite, favorite line. It might come to me as I kind of talk away, but I generally-For me, I love Howard’s humour. Howard Overman is the creator of Mystic.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: And he always does incredibly funny episodes, and I suppose you always enjoy something somebody else does. And, yeah, so, it would probably be Howard Overman, because he always makes me laugh.
Barry: Right.
Julian: He’s just one of those people, but I can’t. I wish I could think of one of my own lines which was really great, but I can’t at the moment. I’ve disappointed whoever-sorry.
Barry: I think (laughs) I think, for me, I still think the-although Arthur’s given great speeches since then, I still think the speech that he gave, and I’d like to think it was your episode, the speech that he gives when they go back to Merlin’s home village and they’re kind of around a kind of round table and he kind of gives a speech to the villagers.
Julian: That’s not my episode.
Barry: Aww. (Julian laughs) I’m hit.
Julian: Do you know, when you said it was a speech, I thought, well it’s bound to be me, because-
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: I generally get all of those. So, I did the one with the Round Table in the last episode.
Barry: Yeah, there is that.
Julian: And there was some great moments, and I do-it did make me laugh when everyone’s sort of stands up and they all give their reason why they want to ‘round the-they’re gonna be part of the attack on Camelot to rescue Uther and the kingdom, and then finally looks at Merlin and Merlin says, “No, I don’t fancy it.”
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: And Arthur says, “Well, you haven’t got a choice.” You know, that was a bit of a risky line because I didn’t know if that would really play, but it made me laugh, and I do like that, but-yeah. It’s not modesty that I’m not coming up with my own lines, it’s just that I’m-do you know what? I’ve got a terrible, terrible memory. (Barry chuckles) […] how I manage to do anything.
Barry: I think, going back to that line, I think that line worked for me because of the two-the two guys sold it. They really sold the line, and I think it was a kind of-they’re both kind of taking the mick out of each other, but at the same time, there was a kind of-the friendship was there, you know?
Julian: Absolutely.
Barry: And I think everyone else they […] to kind of big weighty lines, but they didn’t really need to do that. And I think that was-
[36:08]
Barry: and I thought the music really was epic in that scene as well.
Julian: I love the music in Merlin. I think it does so much for the show. And, again, with that, a pun, they’re sort of unsung heroes. No one ever thinks-it really colours everything that’s going on and gets your emotions going, and yet, probably people really aren’t necessarily fully aware of that. But I certainly am really grateful , ‘cause it just can really be stirring stuff. It can really move you. But I think with that particular line, we had so many epic kind of people standing up and saying that they’re gonna step up for Arthur. And you know that Merlin always does. So, it was nice to undercut it in this particular case.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: But also, just undercut the whole-we always tend to do that. So it felt right. But I love that scene, and I was very glad to hear that I think Arthur had referenced that when asked-Well, Bradley had referenced that at Comi-Con in San Diego. He-when asked what his favourite scene was, I think he mentioned that, and I know that in a way, it’s a very important moment for his character. So I’m very glad that he said that it really brought sort of hair to the back of his neck, or something, somebody told me, anyhow. But, yeah, that really-And it felt like that when I was writing it. It was one of those things that probably took an afternoon to write that speech. But it was so important, and so-- it was a real milestone on his journey. So, I haven’t quite answered the question, but I can say that that is probably, I would agree, it’s probably my favourite scene. But, you know, I’m quite capable of watching loads of bits of Merlin and go, “Oh, no, but that’s my favourite scene!”
Barry: (laughs) yeah.
Julian: “Oh, no, I love that episode!” You know, it’s like I love Jakey’s episode where he introduces Lancelot and I think that’s a fantastic episode. I’m one of those people who’s just not very good-ask me-some people will go, “I know what my top ten-- songs of all time.” I would find it impossible to probably get down to my top 500.
Barry: (laughs) Constantly changes.
Julian: Yeah, yeah. And I just don’t think in those ways.
Barry: Yeah. I suppose, like you, I suppose for me it does change. I think I have favourite moments from each series, as opposed to, “Overall this is my favourite moment.” Because I think my other sort of favourite moment-and I think, actually now, I think it’s still whenever he does it, it’s all kind of, I don’t know, gets hid in the back of my mind, it’s never a Merlin speaks in, I don’t know, when he’s basically doing his dragonlord thing.
Julian: Yeah.
[39:12]
Barry: I think the first time he did that, I thought he’s really kind of-- he’s […] and his powers have kind of stepped up another level, but just the way that he did the voice and it was just so well done, I thought.
Julian: Yeah. Well, that is-that’s in The Last Dragonlord, which the one that I was grasping for, which is at the end of season two and that’s when he has to-he thinks that his father’s died and therefore that the last dragonlord has gone and they can’t save Camelot. And then he understands that, in fact, it’s passed down from father to son and that means that now Merlin is the last dragonlord, which is a wonderful moment. And he has to go out there and speak to the dragon in his own tongue. And they’ve had this difficult relationship, and the dragon has kind of tricked him at certain points and had his own agenda and Merlin has trusted the dragon. And now the dragon has-- looks like he’s turned bad, and he’s got to go out there and face him. And it’s a moment-- it’s a wonderful moment, because he doesn’t know if he’s really got it in him, and he stands there in front of the dragon, and yes, and just suddenly this language that he doesn’t even know that he can speak just comes out, this guttural sound just pours out of him, and as I-for me, of my episodes-- I love that episode. I just love it. It has resonance for me because I didn’t know my father, and so, therefore, I think a lot of that’s sort of there in it. And there’s just so mu-you do-there are many times when our characters, you feel, oh, well they’ve come of age, or they’re-they’ve grow-they’re moving up-but that is a real moment that he stands there in front of that-- well, I’m describing it in that instance, as a monster. You know, as a fire-breathing monster. And it’s great, because sometimes, particularly at that point, Merlin could sometimes look quite fragile and quite weak, and you don’t know how he’s gonna manage to do this.
[41:20]
Julian: And he’s had a very-one of those-throughout the story he’s been quite fragile, because this is a momentous moment. And then he has to take on his father’s mantle, and I love that. I love the fact that you were saying that you kind of remember that moment and it’s a different language. We have to use a different language for that, whereas we use Old English the rest of the time. When he speaks with the dragon-tongue, it’s something else. We have to get another researcher in for that. (Julian laughs)
Barry: Oh, really?
Julian: Oh, yeah, I mean, it’s all proper stuff. It’s all there. Yeah, yeah, no, we don’t just kind of come up with a whole load of, erm…we don’t just write a whole lot of things we- (Barry laughs) We’ve got to have it translated. You pick up a few things ‘cause you use some of the spells over and over again, but there are certain things “tospringe” you know, and things like that that come up on a few occasions, and it’s right that Merlin should sometimes be using. But some of these spells, we’ve got to get it all worked out, have somebody looking at it. I try and put down a few bits of Old English, but when you’ve got to conjugate a verb, and all the rest of it, you got to have some Oxford professor give us the lowdown. So, yeah, no, it’s-that’s why it’s so damn hard for the actors. I know that Katie, who plays Morgana, she’s now got some massive spells and she - I tell you - she comes cursing me every time I see her. (Barry laughs) I hope she’s not one of those-as long as it’s not a real curse, you know?
Barry: Yeah. (they laugh)You’d be in a lot of trouble otherwise.
[43:07]
Barry: I’ve got Marie-- Actually, I’ll read this out, because it’s a bit of a compliment to you, actually.
Julian: Aww.
Barry: She actually says, “Much of the success of Merlin is due to the writing and being able to give the actors scripts with a rich blend of drama and comedy and romance and angst and intrigue and adventure, which JJ does so well.”
Julian: Aww, that’s-thank you, Marie. Erm, that’s-- that is really nice.
Barry: Her question, which I don’t know if you will be able to answer, ‘cause of
Julian: Oh, god!
Barry: …spoilers. As the brother of Igraine and Tristan, Agravaine must know the truth about Arthur’s birth. Will he use that to blackmail Gaius and, by extension, Merlin into silence, and thus evilly entrench himself as Uncle” she put in brackets “[Scar],” I’m assuming that’s Scar from The Lion King (chuckles), “to Arthur.”
Julian: Erm… (Barry laughs) Well, she’s well onto Agravaine, isn’t she? Erm, you know, I can’t divulge anything and really get away. I mean, it’s great that we’re being second guessed to that degree that people are already kind of seeing where we might go and the problems for Merlin and, indeed, Arthur. So-but I can say that…what can I say? Erm, she’s-her head is in the right place.
Barry: Right.
Julian: And, erm, she’s done very well, but I cannot say anything.
Barry: (laughs) So, you’re on the right track.
Julian: I’m sorry, Marie.
Barry: Yeah, you’re on the right track, Marie. (they laugh) Our other question, which you actually just answered…was what was your favourite episode of the first three series?
I think we probably touched on both of the-I think that the last episode of season three, I really enjoyed because of that sort of iconic moment around the Round Table. We didn’t-we’d been itching to get there, itching to get Arthur to that point, and as I say, The Last Dragonlord, that was-as I say, I really enjoyed that. I think there are some coming up in this season that will test me in terms of episodes that I love. I know, without giving any-well, I’ll try-- How can I sort of hint at this without any spoilers? Erm, there’s a kind of a quest story that involves the [Triskallian of Ashkanar] and that’s-I can’t tell you the ending to that, but it is special.
Barry: Okay.
Julian: Erm, and it’s something that we’ll pick up in season five.
Barry: Ooh.
Julian: That’s all I can say. But, yeah, I just love writing Merlin as there are so many great episodes that I’ve been involved with and other writers have as well. As I say, the introduction of Lancelot in season one was a great, great moment and Lancelot’s a fantastic character who comes into the show every so often and is always a treat. And I’ve really put that down and said, Jakey’s fantastic introduction.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: So, I don’t know. Does that answer the question? I keep saying that, I keep-
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: I do my best. (laughs)
Barry: Yeah, you did. You’re doing great, mate. Don’t you worry yourself. (laughs)
[46:56]
Barry: Now, I’ve completely forgot these two guys, and I should-we should at least mention them.
Julian: Right.
Barry: Uther and Gaius. What can--?
Julian: Ah, yes!
Barry: …those guys?
Julian: Yes. Yeah, well, I think you hit upon where Uther was at in the last-at the end of the last season. And I think he-it’s left him a very troubled man. So, that’s where he starts this season. And he’s not someone who’s naturally going to be someone who’s gonna just stand aside for his son. And so he’s not going to relinquish power so-that’s a part of the upcoming season. In terms of Gaius, well, I think that Gaius-his relationship with Merlin is always crucial to the show; it’s the heart of the show. And he’s watching him as somebody now who is…almost moving beyond some of his knowledge, and that’s quite difficult, and there’s a very-there is an episode that is very emotional. And-so, yeah. It is a real good father and son relationship, and I think that’s still there, but it is the story of Merlin, really, as all sons should, they should, as indeed Arthur should. They’ve got go out there and be their own men, haven’t they?
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: And I think that’s both those relationships, both those father and son relationships, that’s always hard. It’s definitely hard. And so that comes into the show in a way.
Barry: Okay. Good, good stuff. And my last question.
Julian: Yeah.
Barry: Before I release you. (they chuckle)
Julian: Am I gonna have my carrot soon?
Barry: (laughs) Ooh. (they laugh) Sorry, sorry.
[49:28]
Barry: Is-I’ve heard there’s a film version in the works. Is this true?
Julian: Do you know what? I’ve hear that as well. (they laugh) It’s something that’s been talked about. I don’t think I’m at liberty to say much more.
Barry: Mm-hmm.
Julian: But it’s something that has been talked about, and I know that Johnny let that out of the bag recently. But that really, again, is the territory of the producers.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: And, indeed, the BBC. So, I can’t really comment much on that.
Barry: Well, I’ll comment on that. (they laugh) I-I mean-- ‘cause there’s some shows, when they’re kind of-when you hear the word “film” and you sort of think “Really? I just can’t see that working as a film.” But I really could see Merlin working as a big budget film. Whether or not you do it or not is a-that’s a wait and see, but in terms of whether it would work or not, I could really see that working as a film.
Julian: Yeah, I think there are people out there who think the same, and I think we’ve always-the sort of slightly weird thing is that we’ve always tried to go at making the show-turning it into mini movies.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: And we-don’t have anywhere near that budget, but we do the best we can, and it’s really down to the love of the fantastic crew that we have, who work incredible hours and give their all that we are able to achieve that. So, yeah, there are people out there who’ve recognized that and certainly we’ve got stories big enough, and there are lots of other questions. We don’t want to take anything away from our series, as it is. You know, you don’t want to suddenly move it there and then you can’t-I don’t know if you know what I mean. So, I think there are lots-it’s out there. It may happen. Who knows?
Barry: Yes. (chuckles) That was cleverly answered, sir.
Julian: Was it? I don’t know. I was dancing around the rumours, kind of going “Errrr.” I had a feeling you were going to ask me that question, and I still hadn’t really prepared how I was going to answer it.
Barry: I was gonna say, you were thinking we’ve got to the last question, “Ah, he’s not going to be about a film, is it? I’m safe.”
Julian: Yeah, I thought I’d got through. What I really didn’t want was to have to phone up Johnny tomorrow and go, “Do you know you-well, um…I think you might find somewhere there’s gonna be something in the press about…”
Barry: Yeah, it’s gonna start. Johnny, you’re gonna laugh, mate, when I tell you this, you’re gonna laugh.
Julian: Yeah, it’s really funny. That’s what I always-it’s like you’ve suddenly thrown that thing from Angel at me, and I’m going, “Oh, right, really that was not one that I could’ve anticipated in any way.” And who knows what question she was suddenly give that led her to say that.
Barry: Yeah, there you go.
Julian: That’s the thing. You get asked questions and, at that point, you just say something that, as I say, she might’ve just through, “Oh, well, we always said it was gonna be five seasons.” And then, suddenly-- who knows? I have no idea.
Barry: Well, just to be fair, I mean, she actually said, looking at the quote, she actually said, “They always said they would do five years. So, apparently next year’s the last one.” Now, that to me is not a- “it’s ending.”
Julian: Exactly, she’s actually reiterating exactly what I said.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: Which is that: if that’s the case, then next year will be the last one. And no one-we did well enough to get season five commissioned before we’d even finished season four. No one’s gonna commission season six. So, you know, that’s a long way down the line. You can’t think that far ahead.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: So, I think that kind of-but I’m glad you’ve given me the exact quote, ‘cause now I can kind of go, “Oh, right, I get that.”
Barry: (laughs) Whew!
Julian: Yeah, I know, the moment I go, “Whew!”
(they laugh)
Barry: Well, as always, Julian, I think the one thing that will-well, obviously, Dave has missed it, ‘cause he’s […] but I think the ones that I’m gonna miss in Merlin eventually-- is our, kind of yearly, well twice yearly chats about the show whenever it’s about to come back or whenever it’s just finished.
Julian: Well, who knows. You know, who knows. I’ve-I enjoy talking about the show and I’ve-who know? We may be talking about something else. We might be talking about your project.
Barry: Well…
Julian: So-when we get to that moment, we’ll worry about it then.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: And who knows? I’m sure, between us, we’ll have other conversations or other shows to talk about. So, let’s remain positive.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: That’s the way I am.
Barry: Let’s end on a positive note. Well, I’m really excited about series four. I’m really looking forward to Saturday to checking it out, as always.
Julian: Well, let me know what you think. Let me know. I said to you, I was slightly apprehensive about how it would all pan out, because a lot of this depends on a lot of other people, this particular episode, and I’ll be interested to know what you think. So, you know, drop me a line.
Barry: Yeah, will do, mate.
Julian: Excellent.
Barry: I will let you finally go and eat your carrot soup. I’m sure you’ve been […] (Julian laughs)
Julian: Okay, mate, well, I’m gonna enjoy my carrot soup, and I look forward to speaking to you soon.
Barry: Alright, Julian, enjoy it mate. Take care.
Julian: Okay. Cheers.
Barry: Alright, bye.
[Epilogue]
Barry: And that was Julian Jones. So, as always, if you want to get a hold of us, you can go to our website, which is www.geeksyndicate.co.uk lots of great geeky stuff going on there. You can contact us by e-mail, which is geeks@geeksyndicate.co.uk follow us on Twitter, Facebook, you name it, that’s where we are. So, until next week, well, hopefully next week, Dave will be back online, and probably that will be the last ever weekly Geek Syndicate podcast. So, look out for that people. Coming soon, take care. Geek Syndicate. I’m out.
Barry: Hi there, and welcome to this special Merlin episode of Geeks Syndicate. Unfortunately Dave can’t join us this week. His, er, it-- well, he has no - to put too fine a point on it. Until that time, I caught up with Julian Jones, writer and co-creator of Merlin, which is starting back on BBC1 this Saturday to chat about season 4, and kind of just to look at a look forward, and kind of a little look back at season 3 and some questions from you guys. So, erm, over to Julie.
[intro music]
Barry: Well, anyway, we’re not here to talk about me, we’re here to talk about you and Merlin.
Julian: Well, talk about series 4, you know, which is kicking off on Saturday, and they’ve kept that a bit of a secret from all of us. It just keeps coming up on the TV, you know, "Coming soon, coming soon." (Barry laughs) "Merlin coming soon." But it’s actually coming this Saturday, which is, erm, which is good, ‘cause you want to get it out there and get on with it. And so it’ll run right up until, I believe Christmas Eve, which is quite nice. It’s not-- nothing going out at Christmas, and that’ll be nice.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: So…
Barry: And it’s also, erm, I mean, I’m not sure the exact timings of it. Does it show before or after Doctor Who?
Julian: Well, it’s gonna show-Doctor -- this is the last episode of Doctor Who--
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: So I think their idea is, you know, go out-Doctor Who finishes, and then just go straight into this first episode. And I think that it’s gonna air a lot later than probably the other episodes. They keep always moving it around on a Saturday night.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: […] a consistent time slot. But I think the first episode in particular, er, it’s probably appropriate, because it is…it is a dark opening the episode. We’ve gone very dark. And you’re sort of hoping then that you’re not going to have the young - if the younger children are staying up to watch it, then you're hoping their parents are going to be there, because, er, yeah. I think they’ve gone as dark as we can go. Obviously, as the series progresses, the sun begins to shine, and, you know, we get all the fun that we get in a normal series of Merlin. But we ended the last season after returning the knights of Camelot to, erm, get rid of our dear old friend, Morgana.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: And we start this new series, and she’s still out there, and she’s just, you know, her powers have grown.
Barry: Well, I saw-- I went to-- well, we met very briefly at the big screen. You guys turned up and you kind of showed some clips from season 4, and it was a trailer and whatever, which, you know, all looked stunning, I’ve gotta say. All looked really epic. And one of the clips was of Morgana, and, yeah, she-- (laughs) any kind of idea that, "No, she’s not really that evil anymore," is completely gone from that clip I saw.
Julian: Oh, yeah. Yes.
Barry: I mean, she’s fully dark side now.
Julian: Yeah, she is. She’s in cracking form, and you know, Morgause was a-- is a brilliant villain, but Morgana really moves us onto another level, which then Merlin, as her adversary, he’s got to step up to another level. So, it’s really important that you-- that we have a very strong villain at this point, because, as we want to move the series on, then, in a way, she drives it. She drives it. She gives different stakes. And I’m glad you mentioned the fact that you thought that it looked more epic. I think that we’ve worked hard on that, and certainly the production team have, you know, have really been pushed, much more the location staff, and we’re shooting on 35mill, and there’s a lot more CGI. So, a lot more green screen, and some vast interiors they’ve created. So, it is getting more and more filmic.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: And it’s no good just doing that in isolation. You’ve got to have the stories to fit that on, and I think that the stories that we’ve got, not that I think we’ve had, you know, mingers in the past, but we’ve (laughs) I think that every one of these is a cracking story.
Barry: Right.
Julian: And it’s just been one of those things that every single episode has just had a-- we’ve had great ideas from the start, and everybody’s really-- all the writers’ve really delivered. And each time you’ve thought, “That’s a" -- each time we do a block of two or three episodes, so we’re filming those at the same time, and each block comes in and you look at the-- you go to the read through and you think, “Wow, that’s a good episode.” And then we read the next one, you go, “You know, that one’s, that’s a darn good episode as well,” and, yeah, it’s been very exciting. Really, really good. You know, you could get to season 4 and think, “Mmm, well, we’ve run out of ideas,” and I think, if anything, it’s the opposite. You know, now you’ve really-we’ve seemed to have created a space where we can tell richer and richer stories. So, erm, yeah, it’s been fantastic, and this year’s just gone so quickly, that’s, you know, really what I feel.
Barry: Well, one of the questions I was going to ask you is kind of like you’ve done. You’ve got three series under your belt. And obviously-- you’ve obviously worked with series four, but, you know, kind of going-- taking a step back: when you rounded up series three and you were moving onto series four, and doing the scripts for series four, did you find it easier when you came to prep series four because of all the kind of work you’d already done, or was it again that kind of difficult getting back into it, because you’re upping the stakes of each series?
Julian: For me, and I think I’m probably speaking for everyone, I can remember going back to probably almost a time last year-- probably another month-- it’s about another month we start talking who will sit down together and throw in our ideas for the next series and sit ‘round our sort of Arthurian, erm, Round Table.
Barry: (laughs)
Julian: I can remember that point, and we just seem to very quickly instinctively know what this series was about. We’d set up so many things, and I-you know, it just felt very good from the start. I think the only thing was, initially the BBC were talking to us about maybe doing a run of ten--
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: And then they later came back to us and said 13. So we had our-we had a very clear idea of where the ten were and we were working towards that and it’s fantastic they came back and said 13, because exactly right, we were doing 13 before.
Barry: Mm-hmm.
Julian: So then we had to sort of move a few things around, and that was a bit tricky. […] are shooting forwards, and so suddenly we were back in that position of everything being a bit “Oh, my god!” you know “It’s on top of us!” but in terms of coming in and doing the show and thinking, “What’s gonna happen next?” I think the hardest time was probably after season one, because going into season one, I think we-because you’ve got that whole business of pitching an idea to the BBC--
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: And then developing it, erm, we knew what it was about. And it had quite a big built up. Although, things changed, of course they did, in conversation with BBC, and in conversation with each other and understanding the animal. We probably didn’t understand it until we were, you know-- nearly had shot the first three episodes. There were things that we were learning. So, we came into season two, and I think then that was much more of a question where we-- “That’s gone reasonably well, how do we, you know, where do we go from there?” and we didn’t want to rush too far into the legend. We wanted to keep lots of things. I think season two was probably the hardest in that respect because we’d put a lot of energy into setting it up and then it’s, “Well, where do we go?” But I think there’s a real confidence about the show and everyone involved in it feels confident now. We know what it’s about. We know what we want to do. And there just seemed to be idea after idea was put on the table and they were all ones that you wanted to snatch up and run with. So, yeah, as I say, I think that Johnny and Julian, the producers, have got a very clear handle on what they’re doing.
Barry: Mmm.
Julian: So you feel very confident about throwing ideas in and everybody knows where they’re going. It’s-- it was a very positive start to a series, which is exactly what you need.
Barry: Mmm.
Julian: And I think that confidence is there and hopefully will be on the screen throughout.
[09:30]
Barry: Now, in terms of planning series four, and obviously, you guys have now had series five confirmed.
Julian: Yeah.
Barry: And congratulations on series five.
Julian: Thank you very much.
Barry: Now, did that impact on your planning for series four in terms of knowing that you’ve definitely got a series five coming after? Because I know with other shows, when they’ve got that kind of not-quite-sure they’re going to get another series, there’s almost a certain limit of, like, trying to make it a little bit self-contained?
Julian: That is the difficulty of the process in that, you’re coming to your episode 13, and you’re not sure whether you’re gonna get another season. It’s very, very difficult, because you think, “Well, you got these stories to tell, is it the moment to tell them? Do I go to the big ending now?” And then find, "Oh, no, we’re coming back again," and then you go, “Well, where do I go from there?”
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: Or do you hold it back? And then you don’t give it the big ending and it kind of just peters out. I-- We had this problem on a show called Hex, which we did.
Barry: Oh, yeah.
Julian: And we, you know, well, is it coming back or isn’t it? And what kind of an ending? And-- So, it’s really good for us to know that we’ve got the next season, because we don’t have that uncertainty. We can be incredibly confident about where we get to. We don’t have to get to our-we don’t have to suddenly go, “Well, this has got to have to be a big completion that we’ve rounded off this wonderful series. We don’t have that. We know exactly-- that we’re gonna get another series. So we can just have fun and then tee up ready for that next season five.
Barry: Mmm.
Julian: Which I hope we’ve done. I mean, we’re filming, er, or just f- we don’t film-- Although we’re still filming, we don’t film the last episode in the last block, because the last episode is always massive.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: So we’ve got so much post-production to do, in terms of CGI, that we have to film it a lot earlier. So, that’s just finishing filming at the moment. Although the cast and crew continue, and they’ll film some of the extras that’ll go out earlier now. But we’re just, as I said, finished shooting. And episode 13: it’s massive. It’s really-- it’s fantastic, you know, it’s a two parter.
Barry: Okay.
Julian: Erm, and I’ve split that with Jake Mickey who’s the other-- the co-creator.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: And he introduces a couple of characters in 12, Tristan and Isolde. It’s-- I mean, the story isn't really like some Mr and Mrs Smith with, erm...
Barry: Oh yeah.
Julian: Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie. I mean, that is not the story. But if you can kind of imagine you've got [...] those characters there--
Barry: Right
Julian: There's just something about them that reminds me of that film. Anyhow, you know, I kicked-- he kicks off 12 with them and I pick them up in 13. And 13 is-- it's one of those iconic eps and, as I say, we're not gonna [...] to pull the plug on it, so we just go for one of those really big eps. Pick up something from the legend--
Barry: Right.
Julian: And bring it to life in our own, hopefully slightly unique way, and it's one of those eps. So it's-- If we thought that we were rounding everything off [...] we wouldn't be able to do that because you know you have to have some kind of conclusion.
Barry: I was gonna say, 'cause I suppose you've got less time to play with then, haven't you? If you've got to sort of move towards a conclusion as such.
Julian: Exactly. Exactly. And what we do is we hopefully tee up season 5 really well. and what we've given the audience is one of those moments that they've all been-- it's one of those moments from the legend that everyone's been waiting for. Obviously we're gonna do it in our own way because you can't repeat what everyone's done before because otherwise it wouldn't be interesting. You want to have that moment that if you don't know anything about the Arthurian legend, you'll enjoy it, but if you know something about the Arthurian legend, you've ever seen any of the films before, read any of the books, you'll go, "Well, that's one of the big moments," and you'll enjoy it because we've done it with a little twist. So, I mean, I can't wait for episode 13, but you know what? I can't wait for all the episodes along the way (Barry laughs), so...
[14:11]
Barry: It's always [...] talking to you anyway Julie. But one of the things I think that you guys always do really well, kind of going back to the kind of having to conclude every series, is the fact that I always love your series openers and I always love your series finales because you're always able to kind of build up and you're able to conclude your stories in such a way that you could turn around and go, "Well that's it for Merlin, we didn't get another series," and I could sit there and quite happily feel that I've been given a conclusion that I'm happy with.
Julian: Right.
Barry: So that it doesn't end on a cliffhanger and you're kind of left thinking, "I wonder how it would've ended. I wonder if Merlin would've ended this way or..."
Julian: Yeah.
Barry: And I think you always did it really well, and I think the last-- the series 3 finale I just thought was awesome-- with the shot with the knights coming back and sort of Arthur there with Guinevere and you had a little chat with Merlin, and obviously Uther's not really playing with a full deck anymore.
Julian: (laughs)
Barry: Yes, okay, you could argue that, yes, Arthur's not king yet, and yes, he doesn't know about Merlin, but all the builder blocks were there, everything was kind of in place so if you'd ended it there, I could've quite happily gone away and think, "Well, you know, probably the next day he would've become king anyway, because Uther was, you know..."
Julian: (chuckles) Yeah.
Barry: So I was kind of quite happy with that, but obviously I'm very excited that you move it into series four, but it's one of those things that I think you guys at Merlin do really well with your season finales. The series finales, should I say.
Julian: I certainly felt-- and I think we all shared was the looking back on season one, which seems a long time ago, we had a big ending there in season one and I think then it was the idea that, "Oh we got there, we want to pick it up at the same level." Do you know what I mean?
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: We want to-- so that it's not that we go all the way up there and then we go, "Oh well, let's go back and just do some regular episodes where he messes around with a couple of trolls at the beginning of the next season." You know, we want to-- we took it to an epic level, and so that's the kind of-- instead of coming back and going down, we just always try to lift it. We try to go that much further. And the first thing that we say at the beginning of the season is "Right, well, that's where we were, how can we go one better?"
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: If, in my old age, when I sit down one day to look at the whole thing back to back, I hope that it's a sort of unrelenting kind of escalation of--
Barry: Of darkness. (laughs)
Julian: (laughs) Of darkness, of jeopardy, and that we just kept constantly improved and I think we have taken a risk with this opening episode. I know that I went to the screening that [...] told me was on the wrong day and I got all very nervous about--
Barry: Yeah, it wasn't a plan or anything. It wasn't a plan.
Julian: No, no, I'm only messing about. I'm only messing about. [...] (Barry laughing) Am I going the wrong day? or am I going on another day? But I went to see that, and I think I was probably the most, kind of, unsure as I sat down in my seat as to what the reaction would be and how it would all work because it is dark and it's got a lot of those moments that hopefully will make you kind of jump a bit, and erm, and I didn't know how it would pan out. But judging by the audience there, it went really well. So, it's not only just about making it darker, but it's also challenging ourselves to try and push things in different directions and--
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: and see how we-- and that's what we're always going to do I suppose. But that doesn't mean that we don't get the other end of it, you don't kind of go (sucks in breath) did that work? But hopefully it did.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: You can be the judge of it on Saturday, or whenever you, you know, whenever you get to watch it.
Barry: Oh, it will be Saturday, mate, don't worry about that.
Julian: (laughs)
[18: 38]
Barry: Just kind of getting into the meat of some of the characters a little bit for series four...
Julian: Yeah.
Barry: What are the big changes to-- at the end of series three, erm I was most excited about was kind of the introduction of the knights of Camelot. Now, I know we've had-- I know you always see knights, kind of, with Arthur, for me it was really great to kind of see, kind of Lancelot and the other guy-- and Gwaine, and the other guys in there at the end. I'm assuming these guys are coming back now as kind of main characters?
Julian: Yeah, I think that going on from that the last episode is three, yeah, you know, that was the Arthur getting his Knights of the Round Table together.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: And that's a big thing that happens in this season, and we develop-- we give more to all the knights now. We've got Percival who was introduced right at the end there. We've got Elyan, Gwen's brother, and we bring back Lancelot, which is really important for this season. We got Gwaine as well, who I think the audience have taken to as a bit of sort of fun to the mix.
Barry: Merlin's [...]. (Julian laughs) He's great.
Julian: Yeah, he is. They've all got their own distinct, erm...
Barry: Yeah. Yeah.
Julian: Little things that they bring to it. And so, yeah, I think that Sir Leon has been one of the characters that has grown on everyone. We've seen how the audience responded to him. And it is lovely to, pardon the pun, bring him to the table and he's there, and so he's got stuff to do. And I think it's great for Arthur that he's got the knights. I think that's really helpful.
[20:41]
Barry: Yeah. Now, you kind of mentioned Arthur, Guinevere, and Lancelot.
Julian: Ah, yes.
Barry: Now, you know, I can't leave-- I can't leave that one alone. So, (Julian clears his throat) and you've mentioned Lancelot is quite important in this series. Now, obviously, I mean, people I find weird, people asked specific questions about specific things happening in a series which hasn't been shown yet. I don't necessarily want-- I more want hints here. I don't want to be spoiled.
Julian: Yeah, I mean, I'm not gonna give away any real spoilers, well, I hope not. See, they might slip out, that's always the danger. We've got a great story for Lancelot. He starts in our-- that really starts in our first episode. And I'll just say that the triangle with Gwen and Arthur has got some great twists in it. Gwen's character really progresses. Angel is, you know, she's a brilliant actress, and I think that, yeah, she's got a great, great journey to go on this season. I think that's probably all that I would be permitted to say at this point.
Barry: Okay.
Julian: But it is one of the-- it is a big arc within season four.
Barry: Right, okay. I'll stay around. (Julian laughs)
Julian: And I think the people who are interested in that story won't be disappointed.
Barry: Okay. In terms of Journeys, 'cause you just mentioned Guinevere, one of the questions I was goiing to ask you was, sort of besides Merlin and Arthur, 'cause, to a certain extent, they always go on a journey in each series, what character besides those two would you say, in terms of writing scripts and whatever, would you say goes on the biggest journey in this series?
Julian: You know, if you would've asked me this question before, I would've said in some way that Gwen does. And, yeah, I think that, in some ways Morgana as well. We tried to give both the women stronger roles within the show, and that's not just from a sort of political point of view, but I think that they've earned that, and I hope that's been rewarded. Yes, Arthur has-- and I know you'll say, "Oh, well, yeah, of course they're gonna go on journeys," but I think Arthur, he steps up to the plate. And I've probably used that line before about him, but he's constantly-- you go back to the prince that you meet in episode one, season one, you know, he's a bit of a buffoon, a bit of an arrogant [...] an he's becoming more of a rounded man and going to be that you can see him becoming the legendary king, and I think that Merlin's character echoes all of that. He's there always at his side and they go through a lot together, and I think their friendship really grows. it's difficult because they are the heart of the show.
Barry: Yeah.
[23:55]
Julian: We bring in another character, Agravaine.
Barry: Yes. I was gonna ask you about him, actually.
Julian: Yeah, he's Arthur's uncle.
Barry: Right.
Julian: And, well, you know I mean, he’s-he totally pitches up and he does influencing things that happen within Camelot. And erm, it’s just-I can’t-I don’t know what you’re-It’s very difficult. I don’t want to ruin anything for anybody.
Barry: I was gonna say, put it this way: looking at the pictures of him and the little clip of him in the trailer, he looks dodgy to me.
Julian: (laughs)
Barry: (laughs) I mean, that’s not really a spoiler. He just looks dodgy to me. He might be a lovely bloke, Julie. He could be a lovely bloke, but he looks dodgy.
Julian: He might be. He might be that wonderful, long lost uncle that turns up that you always wished you had.
Barry: Hmm.
Julian: But he might not be.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: Who knows? (They laugh) Yeah, I don’t know. I’m trying to think of all the questions in terms of the characters but I think that, as I say, the main-the heart of it, is the two women definitely come on and the triangle are the big things in that respect.
[25:06]
Barry: Okay. Now, actually, yeah, a couple questions I had, we’ve got some fan questions, but a couple of questions that I had that are quite recent stuff. I was just actually on Digital Spy website, or whatever
Julian: Right.
Barry: Angel had just said, I think you said you come on about half an hour ago. She-well, they’ve said that she suggested that the show will end after the fifth series.
Julian: Well, I think that there’s always-when we pitched the show, we pitched it as five seasons.
Barry: Yes.
Julian: Which was kind of a bit of, it was showing our confidence.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: And certainly for the expenditure that was needed for a show like this, you-people wanted that kind of ambition. And we were saying, “Well, we’ve got a big story to tell, and we’ve got the legs for this.” So, at the start, five seasons was quite a lot to be pitching, and it would’ve been arrogant to ask for anything more. So, that was always where we started, and lo and behold, we’re now talking about season five.
Barry: Mmm.
Julian: What happens then, I don’t know if anything has been decided. Maybe she’s talk to the BBC or somebody, but I really-I don’t think-I think it’s probably just that that’s what we’ve always talked about.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: Because we needed to be talking to the actors and saying, “Well, we’ve got a show, and isn’t gonna be just gonna come in for a few weeks. You know, we intend for these characters to run five seasons, and that is what we’ll tell the BBC.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: So, this is a big show. And you have to make that clear to the actors at the beginning, because some people don’t want to be involved in a show that’s gonna continue.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: And so, therefore, you know at that point, well-had that kind of situation with Hex. Lost our lead actress after season one, and that’s very, very difficult. So, you want to make it very clear to people because a show that’s gonna be coming back for a good long while. So, we’ve always said five seasons, and I think that’s where that notion has-I think that’s probably public knowledge. That’s always been around. So, I don’t know if that’s come out of that, but I’m- it’s not something that I’m aware of beyond that. Does that make sense?
Barry: Yeah, no, that makes perfect sense. No, no, the five series - I mean, I’ve always known that, because we’ve always talked about that when we’ve spoken to you. And I think--
Julian: Right.
Barry: But I suppose my question would be, if you were given the opportunity to do a sixth series, would you go for it?
Julian: Well, I love the show. So, I would definitely go for it. And I think my only-the only thing that I wouldn’t want to do would be to dilute the show. I think we’ve got something that is, I hope, really good. It’s very special to me. I hope it’s special to lots of other people. And I do hate it when shows go on and they haven’t got stories to tell, and it’s run its course and then people start milking it. And I think that-I very much hope that everyone involved in it would not do that. So, you know, if it’s got the legs for another season then I would love to do it.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: But I want to make sure that this-that we ne-that the standards never drop. And if we can’t keep moving it on, then I’d rather leave it with people wanting more than take it to a point-- I think we can all think of shows where you go, “Oh, I used to love this show, but I can’t watch it anymore.”
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: It almost makes you sad. It makes you sad because you kind of-that’s how it sort of-it’s like a relationship that’s gone on too long and (Barry laughs) you remember the bad stuff and not the good times.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: So, I want to-I know that that’s-knowing Johnny and Julian, I know that we would always want to leave this as a good memory for everybody. Everyone going, “You know what? That was really good.” And it was cracking TV, and it’d be something that people’d be slightly sad that they hadn’t seen it again, but it would be a good kind of sad because-I’d rather, if that was the case, I’d rather know what was happening and go “Do you know what? We’re gonna go out with a massive bang. And that’s gonna be it, and we’re gonna go out on a monster, monster episode.” Those are discussions that are probably well beyond me. (Barry laughs) That’s my own sense of…
[29:50]
Barry: Erm, okay, right. We’ve got a couple of fan questions.
Julian: Yes.
Barry: First off, we’ve got a question from a Robin Kolkof, I hope I’ve said her name right.
Julian: Yes.
Barry: And she’s asking, what creature has been hardest to do by CGI?
Julian: Well, that’s not really my department. So, I-but she wouldn’t necessarily have known that, but I don’t-there’s a massive team of people that do the CGI, and I know that probably when we first started, the idea of the dragon was incredibly hard, and it’s incredibly important for the show that that works, and it’s our first introduction into a real kind of mythical character. And we had very little idea how to do that. So, I think everything that we’ve learnt has really come from that, among the special effects guys work on a lot of the films and even in the last four years, things have really moved on. But getting that dragon right was very, very hard. These people, they know all about anatomy, so if we ever come up with a monster or we find a monster that’s been written about, and you read about things and they’re three legged monsters, that’s damn hard. You know, you can come up with that idea, but making a three legged monster walk is very, very difficult. And these people will go away and try and find an animal that has a similar kind of anatomy and then base it on that. So, all of them are quite hard, but for me I think the hardest, although not really a monster, could be a monster depending on your view, it was the Great Dragon, because you’ve got a sense of getting the scale right. And the Great Dragon has to talk. And to do that, John Hurt has to go in there and the whole business of having loads of different pads on his face so that the-that it is his movement of his face and the way he says the lines, that gives the expression to the dragon. So, for me, I think that that was probably the hardest. And scripting the dragon was difficult because you want to be able to have a conversation with Merlin, but you know that there has to be-this has to have a kind of, a weight, a sort of a legendary weight. So all of that was very difficult, and we were all learning. I think the monsters have got a lot better.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: Some of the monsters in the early eps I don’t think would stand up in a battle against the latest monsters.
[32:50]
Barry: (laughs) Actually, a question that she has got, which will be right up your street is what is your favorite line out of all of the series and which character says it?
Julian: Oh, god! You know what? I’m so terrible on all of that. Did you know? It’s funny you should say that, but I don’t know. There are a few lines in the opening episode that do make me cringe. I think that-I’m trying to think of a favorite, favorite line. It might come to me as I kind of talk away, but I generally-For me, I love Howard’s humour. Howard Overman is the creator of Mystic.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: And he always does incredibly funny episodes, and I suppose you always enjoy something somebody else does. And, yeah, so, it would probably be Howard Overman, because he always makes me laugh.
Barry: Right.
Julian: He’s just one of those people, but I can’t. I wish I could think of one of my own lines which was really great, but I can’t at the moment. I’ve disappointed whoever-sorry.
Barry: I think (laughs) I think, for me, I still think the-although Arthur’s given great speeches since then, I still think the speech that he gave, and I’d like to think it was your episode, the speech that he gives when they go back to Merlin’s home village and they’re kind of around a kind of round table and he kind of gives a speech to the villagers.
Julian: That’s not my episode.
Barry: Aww. (Julian laughs) I’m hit.
Julian: Do you know, when you said it was a speech, I thought, well it’s bound to be me, because-
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: I generally get all of those. So, I did the one with the Round Table in the last episode.
Barry: Yeah, there is that.
Julian: And there was some great moments, and I do-it did make me laugh when everyone’s sort of stands up and they all give their reason why they want to ‘round the-they’re gonna be part of the attack on Camelot to rescue Uther and the kingdom, and then finally looks at Merlin and Merlin says, “No, I don’t fancy it.”
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: And Arthur says, “Well, you haven’t got a choice.” You know, that was a bit of a risky line because I didn’t know if that would really play, but it made me laugh, and I do like that, but-yeah. It’s not modesty that I’m not coming up with my own lines, it’s just that I’m-do you know what? I’ve got a terrible, terrible memory. (Barry chuckles) […] how I manage to do anything.
Barry: I think, going back to that line, I think that line worked for me because of the two-the two guys sold it. They really sold the line, and I think it was a kind of-they’re both kind of taking the mick out of each other, but at the same time, there was a kind of-the friendship was there, you know?
Julian: Absolutely.
Barry: And I think everyone else they […] to kind of big weighty lines, but they didn’t really need to do that. And I think that was-
[36:08]
Barry: and I thought the music really was epic in that scene as well.
Julian: I love the music in Merlin. I think it does so much for the show. And, again, with that, a pun, they’re sort of unsung heroes. No one ever thinks-it really colours everything that’s going on and gets your emotions going, and yet, probably people really aren’t necessarily fully aware of that. But I certainly am really grateful , ‘cause it just can really be stirring stuff. It can really move you. But I think with that particular line, we had so many epic kind of people standing up and saying that they’re gonna step up for Arthur. And you know that Merlin always does. So, it was nice to undercut it in this particular case.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: But also, just undercut the whole-we always tend to do that. So it felt right. But I love that scene, and I was very glad to hear that I think Arthur had referenced that when asked-Well, Bradley had referenced that at Comi-Con in San Diego. He-when asked what his favourite scene was, I think he mentioned that, and I know that in a way, it’s a very important moment for his character. So I’m very glad that he said that it really brought sort of hair to the back of his neck, or something, somebody told me, anyhow. But, yeah, that really-And it felt like that when I was writing it. It was one of those things that probably took an afternoon to write that speech. But it was so important, and so-- it was a real milestone on his journey. So, I haven’t quite answered the question, but I can say that that is probably, I would agree, it’s probably my favourite scene. But, you know, I’m quite capable of watching loads of bits of Merlin and go, “Oh, no, but that’s my favourite scene!”
Barry: (laughs) yeah.
Julian: “Oh, no, I love that episode!” You know, it’s like I love Jakey’s episode where he introduces Lancelot and I think that’s a fantastic episode. I’m one of those people who’s just not very good-ask me-some people will go, “I know what my top ten-- songs of all time.” I would find it impossible to probably get down to my top 500.
Barry: (laughs) Constantly changes.
Julian: Yeah, yeah. And I just don’t think in those ways.
Barry: Yeah. I suppose, like you, I suppose for me it does change. I think I have favourite moments from each series, as opposed to, “Overall this is my favourite moment.” Because I think my other sort of favourite moment-and I think, actually now, I think it’s still whenever he does it, it’s all kind of, I don’t know, gets hid in the back of my mind, it’s never a Merlin speaks in, I don’t know, when he’s basically doing his dragonlord thing.
Julian: Yeah.
[39:12]
Barry: I think the first time he did that, I thought he’s really kind of-- he’s […] and his powers have kind of stepped up another level, but just the way that he did the voice and it was just so well done, I thought.
Julian: Yeah. Well, that is-that’s in The Last Dragonlord, which the one that I was grasping for, which is at the end of season two and that’s when he has to-he thinks that his father’s died and therefore that the last dragonlord has gone and they can’t save Camelot. And then he understands that, in fact, it’s passed down from father to son and that means that now Merlin is the last dragonlord, which is a wonderful moment. And he has to go out there and speak to the dragon in his own tongue. And they’ve had this difficult relationship, and the dragon has kind of tricked him at certain points and had his own agenda and Merlin has trusted the dragon. And now the dragon has-- looks like he’s turned bad, and he’s got to go out there and face him. And it’s a moment-- it’s a wonderful moment, because he doesn’t know if he’s really got it in him, and he stands there in front of the dragon, and yes, and just suddenly this language that he doesn’t even know that he can speak just comes out, this guttural sound just pours out of him, and as I-for me, of my episodes-- I love that episode. I just love it. It has resonance for me because I didn’t know my father, and so, therefore, I think a lot of that’s sort of there in it. And there’s just so mu-you do-there are many times when our characters, you feel, oh, well they’ve come of age, or they’re-they’ve grow-they’re moving up-but that is a real moment that he stands there in front of that-- well, I’m describing it in that instance, as a monster. You know, as a fire-breathing monster. And it’s great, because sometimes, particularly at that point, Merlin could sometimes look quite fragile and quite weak, and you don’t know how he’s gonna manage to do this.
[41:20]
Julian: And he’s had a very-one of those-throughout the story he’s been quite fragile, because this is a momentous moment. And then he has to take on his father’s mantle, and I love that. I love the fact that you were saying that you kind of remember that moment and it’s a different language. We have to use a different language for that, whereas we use Old English the rest of the time. When he speaks with the dragon-tongue, it’s something else. We have to get another researcher in for that. (Julian laughs)
Barry: Oh, really?
Julian: Oh, yeah, I mean, it’s all proper stuff. It’s all there. Yeah, yeah, no, we don’t just kind of come up with a whole load of, erm…we don’t just write a whole lot of things we- (Barry laughs) We’ve got to have it translated. You pick up a few things ‘cause you use some of the spells over and over again, but there are certain things “tospringe” you know, and things like that that come up on a few occasions, and it’s right that Merlin should sometimes be using. But some of these spells, we’ve got to get it all worked out, have somebody looking at it. I try and put down a few bits of Old English, but when you’ve got to conjugate a verb, and all the rest of it, you got to have some Oxford professor give us the lowdown. So, yeah, no, it’s-that’s why it’s so damn hard for the actors. I know that Katie, who plays Morgana, she’s now got some massive spells and she - I tell you - she comes cursing me every time I see her. (Barry laughs) I hope she’s not one of those-as long as it’s not a real curse, you know?
Barry: Yeah. (they laugh)You’d be in a lot of trouble otherwise.
[43:07]
Barry: I’ve got Marie-- Actually, I’ll read this out, because it’s a bit of a compliment to you, actually.
Julian: Aww.
Barry: She actually says, “Much of the success of Merlin is due to the writing and being able to give the actors scripts with a rich blend of drama and comedy and romance and angst and intrigue and adventure, which JJ does so well.”
Julian: Aww, that’s-thank you, Marie. Erm, that’s-- that is really nice.
Barry: Her question, which I don’t know if you will be able to answer, ‘cause of
Julian: Oh, god!
Barry: …spoilers. As the brother of Igraine and Tristan, Agravaine must know the truth about Arthur’s birth. Will he use that to blackmail Gaius and, by extension, Merlin into silence, and thus evilly entrench himself as Uncle” she put in brackets “[Scar],” I’m assuming that’s Scar from The Lion King (chuckles), “to Arthur.”
Julian: Erm… (Barry laughs) Well, she’s well onto Agravaine, isn’t she? Erm, you know, I can’t divulge anything and really get away. I mean, it’s great that we’re being second guessed to that degree that people are already kind of seeing where we might go and the problems for Merlin and, indeed, Arthur. So-but I can say that…what can I say? Erm, she’s-her head is in the right place.
Barry: Right.
Julian: And, erm, she’s done very well, but I cannot say anything.
Barry: (laughs) So, you’re on the right track.
Julian: I’m sorry, Marie.
Barry: Yeah, you’re on the right track, Marie. (they laugh) Our other question, which you actually just answered…was what was your favourite episode of the first three series?
I think we probably touched on both of the-I think that the last episode of season three, I really enjoyed because of that sort of iconic moment around the Round Table. We didn’t-we’d been itching to get there, itching to get Arthur to that point, and as I say, The Last Dragonlord, that was-as I say, I really enjoyed that. I think there are some coming up in this season that will test me in terms of episodes that I love. I know, without giving any-well, I’ll try-- How can I sort of hint at this without any spoilers? Erm, there’s a kind of a quest story that involves the [Triskallian of Ashkanar] and that’s-I can’t tell you the ending to that, but it is special.
Barry: Okay.
Julian: Erm, and it’s something that we’ll pick up in season five.
Barry: Ooh.
Julian: That’s all I can say. But, yeah, I just love writing Merlin as there are so many great episodes that I’ve been involved with and other writers have as well. As I say, the introduction of Lancelot in season one was a great, great moment and Lancelot’s a fantastic character who comes into the show every so often and is always a treat. And I’ve really put that down and said, Jakey’s fantastic introduction.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: So, I don’t know. Does that answer the question? I keep saying that, I keep-
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: I do my best. (laughs)
Barry: Yeah, you did. You’re doing great, mate. Don’t you worry yourself. (laughs)
[46:56]
Barry: Now, I’ve completely forgot these two guys, and I should-we should at least mention them.
Julian: Right.
Barry: Uther and Gaius. What can--?
Julian: Ah, yes!
Barry: …those guys?
Julian: Yes. Yeah, well, I think you hit upon where Uther was at in the last-at the end of the last season. And I think he-it’s left him a very troubled man. So, that’s where he starts this season. And he’s not someone who’s naturally going to be someone who’s gonna just stand aside for his son. And so he’s not going to relinquish power so-that’s a part of the upcoming season. In terms of Gaius, well, I think that Gaius-his relationship with Merlin is always crucial to the show; it’s the heart of the show. And he’s watching him as somebody now who is…almost moving beyond some of his knowledge, and that’s quite difficult, and there’s a very-there is an episode that is very emotional. And-so, yeah. It is a real good father and son relationship, and I think that’s still there, but it is the story of Merlin, really, as all sons should, they should, as indeed Arthur should. They’ve got go out there and be their own men, haven’t they?
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: And I think that’s both those relationships, both those father and son relationships, that’s always hard. It’s definitely hard. And so that comes into the show in a way.
Barry: Okay. Good, good stuff. And my last question.
Julian: Yeah.
Barry: Before I release you. (they chuckle)
Julian: Am I gonna have my carrot soon?
Barry: (laughs) Ooh. (they laugh) Sorry, sorry.
[49:28]
Barry: Is-I’ve heard there’s a film version in the works. Is this true?
Julian: Do you know what? I’ve hear that as well. (they laugh) It’s something that’s been talked about. I don’t think I’m at liberty to say much more.
Barry: Mm-hmm.
Julian: But it’s something that has been talked about, and I know that Johnny let that out of the bag recently. But that really, again, is the territory of the producers.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: And, indeed, the BBC. So, I can’t really comment much on that.
Barry: Well, I’ll comment on that. (they laugh) I-I mean-- ‘cause there’s some shows, when they’re kind of-when you hear the word “film” and you sort of think “Really? I just can’t see that working as a film.” But I really could see Merlin working as a big budget film. Whether or not you do it or not is a-that’s a wait and see, but in terms of whether it would work or not, I could really see that working as a film.
Julian: Yeah, I think there are people out there who think the same, and I think we’ve always-the sort of slightly weird thing is that we’ve always tried to go at making the show-turning it into mini movies.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: And we-don’t have anywhere near that budget, but we do the best we can, and it’s really down to the love of the fantastic crew that we have, who work incredible hours and give their all that we are able to achieve that. So, yeah, there are people out there who’ve recognized that and certainly we’ve got stories big enough, and there are lots of other questions. We don’t want to take anything away from our series, as it is. You know, you don’t want to suddenly move it there and then you can’t-I don’t know if you know what I mean. So, I think there are lots-it’s out there. It may happen. Who knows?
Barry: Yes. (chuckles) That was cleverly answered, sir.
Julian: Was it? I don’t know. I was dancing around the rumours, kind of going “Errrr.” I had a feeling you were going to ask me that question, and I still hadn’t really prepared how I was going to answer it.
Barry: I was gonna say, you were thinking we’ve got to the last question, “Ah, he’s not going to be about a film, is it? I’m safe.”
Julian: Yeah, I thought I’d got through. What I really didn’t want was to have to phone up Johnny tomorrow and go, “Do you know you-well, um…I think you might find somewhere there’s gonna be something in the press about…”
Barry: Yeah, it’s gonna start. Johnny, you’re gonna laugh, mate, when I tell you this, you’re gonna laugh.
Julian: Yeah, it’s really funny. That’s what I always-it’s like you’ve suddenly thrown that thing from Angel at me, and I’m going, “Oh, right, really that was not one that I could’ve anticipated in any way.” And who knows what question she was suddenly give that led her to say that.
Barry: Yeah, there you go.
Julian: That’s the thing. You get asked questions and, at that point, you just say something that, as I say, she might’ve just through, “Oh, well, we always said it was gonna be five seasons.” And then, suddenly-- who knows? I have no idea.
Barry: Well, just to be fair, I mean, she actually said, looking at the quote, she actually said, “They always said they would do five years. So, apparently next year’s the last one.” Now, that to me is not a- “it’s ending.”
Julian: Exactly, she’s actually reiterating exactly what I said.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: Which is that: if that’s the case, then next year will be the last one. And no one-we did well enough to get season five commissioned before we’d even finished season four. No one’s gonna commission season six. So, you know, that’s a long way down the line. You can’t think that far ahead.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: So, I think that kind of-but I’m glad you’ve given me the exact quote, ‘cause now I can kind of go, “Oh, right, I get that.”
Barry: (laughs) Whew!
Julian: Yeah, I know, the moment I go, “Whew!”
(they laugh)
Barry: Well, as always, Julian, I think the one thing that will-well, obviously, Dave has missed it, ‘cause he’s […] but I think the ones that I’m gonna miss in Merlin eventually-- is our, kind of yearly, well twice yearly chats about the show whenever it’s about to come back or whenever it’s just finished.
Julian: Well, who knows. You know, who knows. I’ve-I enjoy talking about the show and I’ve-who know? We may be talking about something else. We might be talking about your project.
Barry: Well…
Julian: So-when we get to that moment, we’ll worry about it then.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: And who knows? I’m sure, between us, we’ll have other conversations or other shows to talk about. So, let’s remain positive.
Barry: Yeah.
Julian: That’s the way I am.
Barry: Let’s end on a positive note. Well, I’m really excited about series four. I’m really looking forward to Saturday to checking it out, as always.
Julian: Well, let me know what you think. Let me know. I said to you, I was slightly apprehensive about how it would all pan out, because a lot of this depends on a lot of other people, this particular episode, and I’ll be interested to know what you think. So, you know, drop me a line.
Barry: Yeah, will do, mate.
Julian: Excellent.
Barry: I will let you finally go and eat your carrot soup. I’m sure you’ve been […] (Julian laughs)
Julian: Okay, mate, well, I’m gonna enjoy my carrot soup, and I look forward to speaking to you soon.
Barry: Alright, Julian, enjoy it mate. Take care.
Julian: Okay. Cheers.
Barry: Alright, bye.
[Epilogue]
Barry: And that was Julian Jones. So, as always, if you want to get a hold of us, you can go to our website, which is www.geeksyndicate.co.uk lots of great geeky stuff going on there. You can contact us by e-mail, which is geeks@geeksyndicate.co.uk follow us on Twitter, Facebook, you name it, that’s where we are. So, until next week, well, hopefully next week, Dave will be back online, and probably that will be the last ever weekly Geek Syndicate podcast. So, look out for that people. Coming soon, take care. Geek Syndicate. I’m out.