Re: Draco was wrong this time
anonymous
December 30 2006, 23:27:20 UTC
Ah there you go, Harry can not kill Voldemort(at least not yet), hasn't that been the point through every single chapter? What has changed now? In earlier chapters Harry already explained that even if conditions do not seem favorable, doing nothing was never ever an option. Just think about what happened when Voldemort came to Hogwarts and captured the 12 muggleborn students, even then when the action was not the easiest to take, I still believe Harry was right in doing that.
When Harry was faced with the willing sacrifice of the centaur, he did it why? The centaur was a willing sacrifice but why was Harry willing to be his killer, because he is vates right? He had a compulsion to do it, since 1) it looked like the only possibility, 2) it furthered his path as vates by freeing an entire herd of centaurs.
But lets return to Voldemort, the only certainty we are faced with is that Harry can not kill Voldemort, right? We do not know if Harry would die, we do not know if Harry can save Connor. We do not know if one of Voldemort spells is a boobytrap that would kill connor the moment he leaves, all we have is the fact that Harry his brother has been taken, to hurt Harry.
Harry put it the best way in this chapter, if it was anybody else Harry would have gone, if it was Draco, if it was Snape, what is different between Connor and Draco? I understand that Draco justified his actions in his own mind by saying he is Slytherin, that he did it TO SAVE HIMSELF? Ok, lets for the hypothetical sense assume this was some cunning action by Draco to keep Harry from going to Connor, a measure of desperation if you will; why? All we know is that Harry can not kill Voldemort, but what does that have to do with anything. Last time Voldemort threatend Draco Harry put a freaking hole in his magical core, he crippled him, against the odds. When Falco lured Harry into the paths that he knew nothing about, that he was not sure about if he would return, he once again faced the trials and overcame them.
Now we have Harry here, faced with the certainty Connor is being inhumanly tortured, that Voldemort is doing it. Here is a monstrous but probably truthful thought, can Harry kill connor over the twin bond?
Can Draco control Voldemort through Harry for one second to make a torture device slip, or to get the location from his mind as he's occupied with Harry's.
Does one of Snapes contact maybe know something about the location, the spells Voldemort is performing?
Could Harry rally all the magical creatures, maybe even Dobby to swoop in and take connor, can they do ANYTHING but talk about how to incapacitate Harry until Connor dies?
I really don't see how you can justify any such thinking?
Draco being killed because Harry is dead and Voldemort is just being his usual evil self would devastate Harry. Connor being killed and to later found out Dobby knew where they were? That would kill him.
Re: Draco was wrong this timekairi_01December 31 2006, 01:00:20 UTC
Er… let me see if I've got your argument straight. Maybe I'm slow or stupid or something, but it feels like you're all over the place here and I'm having a hard time focusing on what it is exactly you are arguing. Because Harry has successfully gotten himself out of sticky situations in the past and has a lot of support, you think he should rush in this time to save Connor. Connor is his brother and just as important as Draco and Snape, so Harry should not sit there and let Voldemort torture him. Yes?
Well, okay, so this has nothing to do with Harry being vates and respecting free will and whatnot. And it really has nothing to do with Draco's plea at all, only Harry's decision to listen to Draco. Before, I thought you were trying to argue something along the lines of Draco being wrong in asking Harry to stay because Harry is vates. But now you're saying that's not it at all. Well, okay, as long as we're clear on that.
Anyway, I think Harry did the right thing here. Connor is important yes, but is he more important than Draco, Snape, and the rest of the world? Voldemort could not be killed then, so Harry would just be setting himself up for disaster. What happens if Harry is killed? Who is to stop Voldemort then? Harry is a commander now; he must put the importance of the war effort over his own personal desires.
I'm not sure what you're trying to add to your argument with the students Harry had to kill and the centaurs. He's willing to do the right thing, even when it isn't easy? Because if that's your point, I think you're detracting from your argument. It is much harder to sit there, watch your twin brother get tortured, and endure it than it is to obey Voldemort's command so said twin could go free. The former takes a much stronger will than the latter. The latter is what is known as recklessness.
"Here is a monstrous but probably truthful thought, can Harry kill connor over the twin bond?"
Harry doesn't want to kill Connor. He wants his twin back alive if at all possible.
"Can Draco control Voldemort through Harry for one second to make a torture device slip, or to get the location from his mind as he's occupied with Harry's."
There is no torture device. Voldemort is using magic to torture Connor. Magic, and a little girl that was sliced up and eaten. So no, Draco could not have made any sort of "torture device" slip. As for the location, all Harry had to do was ask. This was demonstrated in Chapter 76.
"Does one of Snapes contact maybe know something about the location, the spells Voldemort is performing?"
What "contacts" are you referring to? In case it has escaped your notice, Voldemort is alone. All his Death Eaters are dead or have sided with Harry. There are no "contacts" for the outed traitor Snape. Anyway, as mentioned above, Harry got the location easily enough.
"Could Harry rally all the magical creatures, maybe even Dobby to swoop in and take connor, can they do ANYTHING but talk about how to incapacitate Harry until Connor dies?"
I understand the helplessness you must be feeling. And you know what? They were helpless. I'm sure they would have been discussing rescue methods, but Draco and Snape had to ensure that Harry wouldn't do something foolish like sacrifice himself (and the war) first. One step at a time here. Oh and about Dobby? It's not like Harry has a magical cell phone to dial Dobby up. Besides, he probably doesn't feel like he has a right to request such things from the freed house elf. Vates and all, ya know? How the hell would Dobby know where Voldemort was anyway? Dobby's more concerned about house elf freedom than Harry's affairs.
Re: Draco was wrong this time
anonymous
December 31 2006, 01:47:40 UTC
Lol finally a more sound argument then the other one I was hearing.
I'm certainly not implying Harry should put Connor over the whole war effort, and i'm not saying Harry chose wrong in light of the information he got. I'm saying Draco was not just cunning but acted pure evil in proposing Harry with that choice, which said, Me or Connor. Now Harry had to choose, while it was never actually a matter of choosing since there was a third option that Draco basically eliminated; Me AND Connor. It isn't like dead would have been definite if Harry were to go, and even then Harry has beat that odds many times already. I'm not saying that he will again, but the reason that he is the commander, why we all love him so much is that he will do something. In the past he has taken options less then the best one, rushing into situation he knew nothing about while he could have easily gotten more information. This time though, Harry hasn't done anything, and didn't make the decision to wait in light of more information but to give up on saving Connor until he has Draco's permission.
Now that chapter 76 has come out, and we're referring to it; Now Harry is going anyway, so I guess this discussion has become a little futile. But I do wonder; what has changed? now he's going to save connor by killing Voldemort, if he can beat him now, what stood in the way before? Don't forget there are worse things then death, such as another hole in his magical core, to be ripped out of existence, to be beaten to a pulp; can he do that now? is that why he's going? Couldn't he have done that before.
And as you said, getting Connors location was as easy as asking, but Harry didn't ask anybody. I took Dobby as an example since he's now sort of... lol ascended and knows of a lot of things, to point out the fact that Harry has many many allies.
Harry could also have convened the Alliance, to have them all come to Hogwarts, which would also secure Draco and Snape since they would be among so many allies? He could have called upon Dobby a being of almost pure magic to construct a shield, to take Draco with him to the other side of the world, to hide snape with the Unicorns, to hide him in France, or wherever, just for a second, and if Draco or Snape wanted to accompany Harry, then I guess its their choice to.
There are soooo many things that could have been done, but instead of reassuring Harry of all the possibilities, they drugged him to sleep, and basically condemned Connor to dead, even stating within the ROOM THAT HARRY IS SLEEPING IN that Voldemort can use him as his torture toy for months.
This all comes back to Draco's reasoning, intentions and the act. What were to happen if Voldemort kills Connor now? Harry would actually be justified in his thinking that he gave up on his brother?
And even then, while Harry was sleeping for HOURS (as dreamless normally lasts) Draco and Snape either decided not to convene the alliance so that they may be ready to go at a moments notice, and thought they could do it by themselves, or Harry was the only person who could do this and rather then informing him of these options decided to drug him once again.
I don't know maybe its just me, and i'm totally wrong in my thinking and for some reason that lightning didn't say those things werent possible options.
When Harry was faced with the willing sacrifice of the centaur, he did it why? The centaur was a willing sacrifice but why was Harry willing to be his killer, because he is vates right? He had a compulsion to do it, since 1) it looked like the only possibility, 2) it furthered his path as vates by freeing an entire herd of centaurs.
But lets return to Voldemort, the only certainty we are faced with is that Harry can not kill Voldemort, right? We do not know if Harry would die, we do not know if Harry can save Connor. We do not know if one of Voldemort spells is a boobytrap that would kill connor the moment he leaves, all we have is the fact that Harry his brother has been taken, to hurt Harry.
Harry put it the best way in this chapter, if it was anybody else Harry would have gone, if it was Draco, if it was Snape, what is different between Connor and Draco? I understand that Draco justified his actions in his own mind by saying he is Slytherin, that he did it TO SAVE HIMSELF? Ok, lets for the hypothetical sense assume this was some cunning action by Draco to keep Harry from going to Connor, a measure of desperation if you will; why? All we know is that Harry can not kill Voldemort, but what does that have to do with anything. Last time Voldemort threatend Draco Harry put a freaking hole in his magical core, he crippled him, against the odds. When Falco lured Harry into the paths that he knew nothing about, that he was not sure about if he would return, he once again faced the trials and overcame them.
Now we have Harry here, faced with the certainty Connor is being inhumanly tortured, that Voldemort is doing it. Here is a monstrous but probably truthful thought, can Harry kill connor over the twin bond?
Can Draco control Voldemort through Harry for one second to make a torture device slip, or to get the location from his mind as he's occupied with Harry's.
Does one of Snapes contact maybe know something about the location, the spells Voldemort is performing?
Could Harry rally all the magical creatures, maybe even Dobby to swoop in and take connor, can they do ANYTHING but talk about how to incapacitate Harry until Connor dies?
I really don't see how you can justify any such thinking?
Draco being killed because Harry is dead and Voldemort is just being his usual evil self would devastate Harry. Connor being killed and to later found out Dobby knew where they were? That would kill him.
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Well, okay, so this has nothing to do with Harry being vates and respecting free will and whatnot. And it really has nothing to do with Draco's plea at all, only Harry's decision to listen to Draco. Before, I thought you were trying to argue something along the lines of Draco being wrong in asking Harry to stay because Harry is vates. But now you're saying that's not it at all. Well, okay, as long as we're clear on that.
Anyway, I think Harry did the right thing here. Connor is important yes, but is he more important than Draco, Snape, and the rest of the world? Voldemort could not be killed then, so Harry would just be setting himself up for disaster. What happens if Harry is killed? Who is to stop Voldemort then? Harry is a commander now; he must put the importance of the war effort over his own personal desires.
I'm not sure what you're trying to add to your argument with the students Harry had to kill and the centaurs. He's willing to do the right thing, even when it isn't easy? Because if that's your point, I think you're detracting from your argument. It is much harder to sit there, watch your twin brother get tortured, and endure it than it is to obey Voldemort's command so said twin could go free. The former takes a much stronger will than the latter. The latter is what is known as recklessness.
"Here is a monstrous but probably truthful thought, can Harry kill connor over the twin bond?"
Harry doesn't want to kill Connor. He wants his twin back alive if at all possible.
"Can Draco control Voldemort through Harry for one second to make a torture device slip, or to get the location from his mind as he's occupied with Harry's."
There is no torture device. Voldemort is using magic to torture Connor. Magic, and a little girl that was sliced up and eaten. So no, Draco could not have made any sort of "torture device" slip. As for the location, all Harry had to do was ask. This was demonstrated in Chapter 76.
"Does one of Snapes contact maybe know something about the location, the spells Voldemort is performing?"
What "contacts" are you referring to? In case it has escaped your notice, Voldemort is alone. All his Death Eaters are dead or have sided with Harry. There are no "contacts" for the outed traitor Snape. Anyway, as mentioned above, Harry got the location easily enough.
"Could Harry rally all the magical creatures, maybe even Dobby to swoop in and take connor, can they do ANYTHING but talk about how to incapacitate Harry until Connor dies?"
I understand the helplessness you must be feeling. And you know what? They were helpless. I'm sure they would have been discussing rescue methods, but Draco and Snape had to ensure that Harry wouldn't do something foolish like sacrifice himself (and the war) first. One step at a time here. Oh and about Dobby? It's not like Harry has a magical cell phone to dial Dobby up. Besides, he probably doesn't feel like he has a right to request such things from the freed house elf. Vates and all, ya know? How the hell would Dobby know where Voldemort was anyway? Dobby's more concerned about house elf freedom than Harry's affairs.
-Kairi
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I'm certainly not implying Harry should put Connor over the whole war effort, and i'm not saying Harry chose wrong in light of the information he got. I'm saying Draco was not just cunning but acted pure evil in proposing Harry with that choice, which said, Me or Connor. Now Harry had to choose, while it was never actually a matter of choosing since there was a third option that Draco basically eliminated; Me AND Connor. It isn't like dead would have been definite if Harry were to go, and even then Harry has beat that odds many times already. I'm not saying that he will again, but the reason that he is the commander, why we all love him so much is that he will do something. In the past he has taken options less then the best one, rushing into situation he knew nothing about while he could have easily gotten more information. This time though, Harry hasn't done anything, and didn't make the decision to wait in light of more information but to give up on saving Connor until he has Draco's permission.
Now that chapter 76 has come out, and we're referring to it; Now Harry is going anyway, so I guess this discussion has become a little futile. But I do wonder; what has changed? now he's going to save connor by killing Voldemort, if he can beat him now, what stood in the way before? Don't forget there are worse things then death, such as another hole in his magical core, to be ripped out of existence, to be beaten to a pulp; can he do that now? is that why he's going? Couldn't he have done that before.
And as you said, getting Connors location was as easy as asking, but Harry didn't ask anybody. I took Dobby as an example since he's now sort of... lol ascended and knows of a lot of things, to point out the fact that Harry has many many allies.
Harry could also have convened the Alliance, to have them all come to Hogwarts, which would also secure Draco and Snape since they would be among so many allies? He could have called upon Dobby a being of almost pure magic to construct a shield, to take Draco with him to the other side of the world, to hide snape with the Unicorns, to hide him in France, or wherever, just for a second, and if Draco or Snape wanted to accompany Harry, then I guess its their choice to.
There are soooo many things that could have been done, but instead of reassuring Harry of all the possibilities, they drugged him to sleep, and basically condemned Connor to dead, even stating within the ROOM THAT HARRY IS SLEEPING IN that Voldemort can use him as his torture toy for months.
This all comes back to Draco's reasoning, intentions and the act. What were to happen if Voldemort kills Connor now? Harry would actually be justified in his thinking that he gave up on his brother?
And even then, while Harry was sleeping for HOURS (as dreamless normally lasts) Draco and Snape either decided not to convene the alliance so that they may be ready to go at a moments notice, and thought they could do it by themselves, or Harry was the only person who could do this and rather then informing him of these options decided to drug him once again.
I don't know maybe its just me, and i'm totally wrong in my thinking and for some reason that lightning didn't say those things werent possible options.
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