Draco was wrong this time
anonymous
December 30 2006, 18:51:34 UTC
This time Draco was wrong in all this thinking. Its one thing to wait a little while and not rush in without a clue, however they were doing absolutely nothing, and if Harry could, then as a human being, as his brother, even as vates he was obligated to do so.
Harry just destroyed his entire future, how can he be vates, the epitome of doing what is right not what is easy and stay, how can Draco?
Draco probably being his egotistical self, has crossed the line, as has Snape, as has Voldemort. But I guess neither Draco and Voldemort actually care about this metaphorical line, but I guess I forgot about how Draco is portrayed in the book and what you wished to maintain of the seed of evilness within them. I guess you tried to portray the unfairness of it all, but I think you told me more since I always knew what to expect from Voldemort, but didn't think Draco was on par.
Doing absolutely nothing... if that does not destroy Harry as vates then I must have gotten the totally wrong idea of all the chapters. How can be a war leader, a vates if he can not stand by what he believes, and this time it wasn't Voldemorts fault, at all.
Re: Draco was wrong this timekairi_01December 30 2006, 19:33:28 UTC
I'm sorry, but I have sat here for a few minutes, trying to figure out just how Draco's plea to Harry has anything to do with Harry being vates and I just can't. Could you please explain it to me?
Being vates does not mean being "the epitome of [all that is] right." It means never impinging on the free will of others unless that person's will is infringing on someone else's. It means trying to give humans and creatures alike the freedom they deserve.
Draco is not vates. Draco does not have to respect others' free will as Harry does. Draco can do whatever the hell he pleases. Either way, I do not consider Draco's actions to be in violation of Harry's free will in any way. He essentially gave him an ultimatum. Stay, or sacrifice Draco, Snape, and the rest of wizarding Britain. It was a choice. Draco did not demand or force Harry to stay. He simply give him a probable scenario of what would happen if Harry didn't stay. No, it wasn't a nice choice. But if they want any chance of winning the war, it was the necessary choice.
So, please, explain to me just how that deals with Harry being vates because I just cannot see it.
Re: Draco was wrong this time
anonymous
December 30 2006, 23:27:20 UTC
Ah there you go, Harry can not kill Voldemort(at least not yet), hasn't that been the point through every single chapter? What has changed now? In earlier chapters Harry already explained that even if conditions do not seem favorable, doing nothing was never ever an option. Just think about what happened when Voldemort came to Hogwarts and captured the 12 muggleborn students, even then when the action was not the easiest to take, I still believe Harry was right in doing that.
When Harry was faced with the willing sacrifice of the centaur, he did it why? The centaur was a willing sacrifice but why was Harry willing to be his killer, because he is vates right? He had a compulsion to do it, since 1) it looked like the only possibility, 2) it furthered his path as vates by freeing an entire herd of centaurs.
But lets return to Voldemort, the only certainty we are faced with is that Harry can not kill Voldemort, right? We do not know if Harry would die, we do not know if Harry can save Connor. We do not know if one of Voldemort spells is a boobytrap that would kill connor the moment he leaves, all we have is the fact that Harry his brother has been taken, to hurt Harry.
Harry put it the best way in this chapter, if it was anybody else Harry would have gone, if it was Draco, if it was Snape, what is different between Connor and Draco? I understand that Draco justified his actions in his own mind by saying he is Slytherin, that he did it TO SAVE HIMSELF? Ok, lets for the hypothetical sense assume this was some cunning action by Draco to keep Harry from going to Connor, a measure of desperation if you will; why? All we know is that Harry can not kill Voldemort, but what does that have to do with anything. Last time Voldemort threatend Draco Harry put a freaking hole in his magical core, he crippled him, against the odds. When Falco lured Harry into the paths that he knew nothing about, that he was not sure about if he would return, he once again faced the trials and overcame them.
Now we have Harry here, faced with the certainty Connor is being inhumanly tortured, that Voldemort is doing it. Here is a monstrous but probably truthful thought, can Harry kill connor over the twin bond?
Can Draco control Voldemort through Harry for one second to make a torture device slip, or to get the location from his mind as he's occupied with Harry's.
Does one of Snapes contact maybe know something about the location, the spells Voldemort is performing?
Could Harry rally all the magical creatures, maybe even Dobby to swoop in and take connor, can they do ANYTHING but talk about how to incapacitate Harry until Connor dies?
I really don't see how you can justify any such thinking?
Draco being killed because Harry is dead and Voldemort is just being his usual evil self would devastate Harry. Connor being killed and to later found out Dobby knew where they were? That would kill him.
Re: Draco was wrong this timekairi_01December 31 2006, 01:00:20 UTC
Er… let me see if I've got your argument straight. Maybe I'm slow or stupid or something, but it feels like you're all over the place here and I'm having a hard time focusing on what it is exactly you are arguing. Because Harry has successfully gotten himself out of sticky situations in the past and has a lot of support, you think he should rush in this time to save Connor. Connor is his brother and just as important as Draco and Snape, so Harry should not sit there and let Voldemort torture him. Yes?
Well, okay, so this has nothing to do with Harry being vates and respecting free will and whatnot. And it really has nothing to do with Draco's plea at all, only Harry's decision to listen to Draco. Before, I thought you were trying to argue something along the lines of Draco being wrong in asking Harry to stay because Harry is vates. But now you're saying that's not it at all. Well, okay, as long as we're clear on that.
Anyway, I think Harry did the right thing here. Connor is important yes, but is he more important than Draco, Snape, and the rest of the world? Voldemort could not be killed then, so Harry would just be setting himself up for disaster. What happens if Harry is killed? Who is to stop Voldemort then? Harry is a commander now; he must put the importance of the war effort over his own personal desires.
I'm not sure what you're trying to add to your argument with the students Harry had to kill and the centaurs. He's willing to do the right thing, even when it isn't easy? Because if that's your point, I think you're detracting from your argument. It is much harder to sit there, watch your twin brother get tortured, and endure it than it is to obey Voldemort's command so said twin could go free. The former takes a much stronger will than the latter. The latter is what is known as recklessness.
"Here is a monstrous but probably truthful thought, can Harry kill connor over the twin bond?"
Harry doesn't want to kill Connor. He wants his twin back alive if at all possible.
"Can Draco control Voldemort through Harry for one second to make a torture device slip, or to get the location from his mind as he's occupied with Harry's."
There is no torture device. Voldemort is using magic to torture Connor. Magic, and a little girl that was sliced up and eaten. So no, Draco could not have made any sort of "torture device" slip. As for the location, all Harry had to do was ask. This was demonstrated in Chapter 76.
"Does one of Snapes contact maybe know something about the location, the spells Voldemort is performing?"
What "contacts" are you referring to? In case it has escaped your notice, Voldemort is alone. All his Death Eaters are dead or have sided with Harry. There are no "contacts" for the outed traitor Snape. Anyway, as mentioned above, Harry got the location easily enough.
"Could Harry rally all the magical creatures, maybe even Dobby to swoop in and take connor, can they do ANYTHING but talk about how to incapacitate Harry until Connor dies?"
I understand the helplessness you must be feeling. And you know what? They were helpless. I'm sure they would have been discussing rescue methods, but Draco and Snape had to ensure that Harry wouldn't do something foolish like sacrifice himself (and the war) first. One step at a time here. Oh and about Dobby? It's not like Harry has a magical cell phone to dial Dobby up. Besides, he probably doesn't feel like he has a right to request such things from the freed house elf. Vates and all, ya know? How the hell would Dobby know where Voldemort was anyway? Dobby's more concerned about house elf freedom than Harry's affairs.
Re: Draco was wrong this time
anonymous
December 31 2006, 01:47:40 UTC
Lol finally a more sound argument then the other one I was hearing.
I'm certainly not implying Harry should put Connor over the whole war effort, and i'm not saying Harry chose wrong in light of the information he got. I'm saying Draco was not just cunning but acted pure evil in proposing Harry with that choice, which said, Me or Connor. Now Harry had to choose, while it was never actually a matter of choosing since there was a third option that Draco basically eliminated; Me AND Connor. It isn't like dead would have been definite if Harry were to go, and even then Harry has beat that odds many times already. I'm not saying that he will again, but the reason that he is the commander, why we all love him so much is that he will do something. In the past he has taken options less then the best one, rushing into situation he knew nothing about while he could have easily gotten more information. This time though, Harry hasn't done anything, and didn't make the decision to wait in light of more information but to give up on saving Connor until he has Draco's permission.
Now that chapter 76 has come out, and we're referring to it; Now Harry is going anyway, so I guess this discussion has become a little futile. But I do wonder; what has changed? now he's going to save connor by killing Voldemort, if he can beat him now, what stood in the way before? Don't forget there are worse things then death, such as another hole in his magical core, to be ripped out of existence, to be beaten to a pulp; can he do that now? is that why he's going? Couldn't he have done that before.
And as you said, getting Connors location was as easy as asking, but Harry didn't ask anybody. I took Dobby as an example since he's now sort of... lol ascended and knows of a lot of things, to point out the fact that Harry has many many allies.
Harry could also have convened the Alliance, to have them all come to Hogwarts, which would also secure Draco and Snape since they would be among so many allies? He could have called upon Dobby a being of almost pure magic to construct a shield, to take Draco with him to the other side of the world, to hide snape with the Unicorns, to hide him in France, or wherever, just for a second, and if Draco or Snape wanted to accompany Harry, then I guess its their choice to.
There are soooo many things that could have been done, but instead of reassuring Harry of all the possibilities, they drugged him to sleep, and basically condemned Connor to dead, even stating within the ROOM THAT HARRY IS SLEEPING IN that Voldemort can use him as his torture toy for months.
This all comes back to Draco's reasoning, intentions and the act. What were to happen if Voldemort kills Connor now? Harry would actually be justified in his thinking that he gave up on his brother?
And even then, while Harry was sleeping for HOURS (as dreamless normally lasts) Draco and Snape either decided not to convene the alliance so that they may be ready to go at a moments notice, and thought they could do it by themselves, or Harry was the only person who could do this and rather then informing him of these options decided to drug him once again.
I don't know maybe its just me, and i'm totally wrong in my thinking and for some reason that lightning didn't say those things werent possible options.
Re: Draco was wrong this timegomariliDecember 30 2006, 19:59:23 UTC
i don't agree with you. i'm not going into details, but i really don't agree with anything you just stated. i really do think you DID get the "totally wrong ideas of all the chapters," but in a completely different way than what you mean.
Re: Draco was wrong this timeloonywoifDecember 30 2006, 20:39:40 UTC
Sorry but I think you are wrong. Voldemort can not be trusted. Harry CAN NOT kill him until the last Horcrux is destroyed. If Harry went now, then Voldemort would win and Connor would be tortured for a lot longer. Once they destroy the cup, Harry can go there and destroy Voldemort as he wish.
And how in all the names do you get that by not going to Connor, Harry isn't Vates? Being Vates means standing between the dark and the light. It means binding no one by force but allowing choices. It means opposing slavery. It means not allowing others to control you nor forcing your control on anyone else. How is Draco telling Harry to not go make Harry not vates? Didn't Harry try that road before? Allowing everyone's hurts make him react rather than thinking. We already know that Harry can't think straight. Who could when they are watching thier TWIN being tortured so brutally!?
Draco is being totally slyth, he besically told Harry: "Don't let Voldemort lead you around by the nose because he has your brother. If you love Connor, remember that unless we kill Voldie, he will come back and hurt him again! Stay, make a choice... my plan or Connor."
To call him egotistical in this matter is beyond the pale! He is willing to go rescue Connor. Connor is his brother-in-law and he does care for him... especially as part of his family. Draco understands Harry huts, he understands that Connor is his equal in Harry's heart, different section but he understands! He is huting for Harry and if he could would suffer the visions for Harry. He's being practical because he doesn't want Harry to rush off, have Connor be killed, and then Harry will blame himself! Seems very non-egotistical to me!
As for your accusation that they are doing nothing?! Apparently you idn't see them fail at bringing Evan into thier hands yesterday. They are trying, if they couldn't find Evan as he was, they need to find out who and where he is now. That's what they are doing. They are researching ways to find the cup and Evan-whoever-he-is-now. But yeah,I guess trying to find the cup is 'Nothing'. They are also taking care of Harry and trying to find out where Connor is. They are trying to make plans, we and Harry can't see it because he's in pain. Draco is more consumed with Harry's pain so that using him in planning is sorta not a good idea. He won't concentrate well.
I suggest you reread the series because I think you have missed some of the discussions on what is vates.
Re: Draco was wrong this time
anonymous
December 30 2006, 23:57:11 UTC
Ah so Draco is doing this so that Connor won't be killed? (I guess there goes that part) Draco is doing this so that Harry won't be killed? Wasn't it Draco that said he would stand by Harry to do what is necessary, but I don't see how he is helping Harry in any possible way at the moment, then to keep him drugged up and discuss how to keep him down until Connor dies?
You have to recognize that something should be done about Connor? And who is the best option? I think this is where it becomes evident why at moment like this the world is not fair for ANYBODY, not for Draco, connor or Harry. However, here Draco made the decision to now only not stand by Harry, but also prevent him from doing so for someone else.
And how this stands in the way of him being vates? Someones free will is being scorned, its smart to take preventive measures, to make your chances of success as high as possible, doing nothing however should not be an option, especially since what I have learned and Harry as said, when there is a choice between doing what is easy and what is right, do you think they have taken the right action or the easy one? It sounds cruel since death becomes a great possibility when it comes to doing what is right.
Oh, and I really don't see what Evan has to do with this, i'm not talking about killing Voldemort, i'm talking about saving/ending Connors (pain).
And why Draco was being egotistical; I understand that it could all have been some cunning desperate measure to keep Harry from trying to save Connor; but what Draco said was; Me or Connor? Can you justify it to have anyone make such a choice.
Do you know that now if Connor dies, which is the biggest possibility, after hours more of torture which Harry will witness, Harry will be justified in his guilt of Connors death, he gave him up didn't he? no matter how much you twist and turn it, Draco was a bastard for consciously putting forward this definite in Harry's mind, that they would be OVER if he were to go. Not that Draco would die, just that it would be over, that he would give p on Harry, just as Draco is asking Harry to do for this brother.
Re: Draco was wrong this timeloonywoifDecember 31 2006, 00:33:45 UTC
"Oh, and I really don't see what Evan has to do with this, i'm not talking about killing Voldemort, i'm talking about saving/ending Connors (pain)." The best way to spare connor anymore pain is to oh I don't know.... KILL voldie? Possibly, yeah I think so. And the only way to kill voldy and make sure he doesn't come back is to break is to break the last horcrux.
"And how this stands in the way of him being vates? Someones free will is being scorned," Being vates doesn't mean you protect everyone's free will from EVERYONE else. It means you don't impinge on other's free will. It means you don't let others be enslaved. It means you speak for those who can not speak for themselves. It means you let those who can save themselves do so, those who can't help them, and those who insist on self destruction to do so. If Henrietta was suicidal, he could not stop her. If she was merely depressed, then he would help her back. Connor was stolen by voldie to make harry react without thought. Connor is being tortured by voldie and yes they want to help him. Better though they make a plan. Proper Previous Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance. Let me mention that lightning doesn't tell us what else is happening with the others, she concentrates on Harry. So for all we know Draco could be napping with harry after spending hours trying to invent a spell to steal Connor back. She doesn't say so we don't know, therefore to say that they are doing nothing is wrong. You don't know that and considering who Connor is, I believe they are doing quite a bit!
Re: Draco was wrong this time
anonymous
December 31 2006, 01:25:40 UTC
Not impinging other their wills makes him a good person. The breaking of bonds, the freeing of those bound, is what makes him vates.
"The best way to spare connor anymore pain is to oh I don't know.... KILL voldie?" - interesting I thought you were the one who said, he can't be killed yet. So I guess thats not the BEST WAYYYYY. Omg, can you please let go of the thought of killing Voldemort, thats not what this is about, it is about stopping Connors pain.
"If Henrietta was suicidal, he could not stop her." Well if she wanted to blow herself up in the middle of hogwarts, then yes he could stop her. No he can't do it if she wants to do it to herself, however, if in the act someone tramples upon anothers free will, then yes, he is fully in the right to step in, is he not? Is that not what vates is. The house-elves don't wanna be freed, they wanna work for him? He frees them because that is what he does.
Bonds break just because he exists, right?
I don't know if lightning approved the post I made after this one, but if they are doing something, isn't it better to have Harry help them, then to keep him drugged? Is it not better to convince him to save Connor in the best way possible!!! as you said, then drug him into dreamless sleep, which since it has always been hours, hours must have passed while he was sleeping, hours wasted away, like it was absolutely nothing, as if the world and Connors hurting went on pause or something like that.
As if Harry would not have seen every single second of Connors pain.
Yes, i've read the next chapter, but to even refer to Henrietta as any justification for anything would be ludicrous because that would be relying on luck. Yes they could have worked on runes, especially Draco since he's so good at inventing spells. However, I still do think Harry holds the Lord-level power so he can power even stronger runes. But wait oops, he's sleeping.
Ah well, now Harry is going anyway, so I guess this discussion has become futile. But I do wonder; what has changed? now he's going to save connor by killing Voldemort, if he can beat him now, what stood in the way before? Don't forget there are worse things then death, such as another hole in his magical core, to be ripped out of existence, to be beaten to a pulp; can he do that now? is that why he's going? Well, I guess he could have done that before.
The Hocrux ONLY PROTECTS FROM DEATH not pain, not apparation, or anything like that. So if its not a matter of Voldermort being indestructable, what can he do now that he could not do before? Of its nothing, then why priorities it over saving Connor?
Ah well, I guess i'm just a little silly, thinking, doing nothing is unacceptable.
Re: Draco was wrong this timeloonywoifDecember 31 2006, 00:34:41 UTC
There are no webs on connor and as we saw earlier, diving in without thought to 'fix' things often leads to more pain. So yeah, he's not going to fall from the VATES path by not leaping in and saving connor. As for connor's free will being impinged, the best way to end that impringement is ohhhh yeah, kill voldie.
Yes Draco said Him or Me... Him (and Death) or Me (and a Chance)? Draco meant to paralyze Harry with a choice. He wanted Harry to be pulled by equal forces . He wanted him frozen. Once he froze, Draco used emotional arguments and logical arguments to get Harry to promise not to run off half-cocked. Go back and reread the part. Draco even admitted he wasn't playing fair, he admitted that he needs and loves harry. He said he had no right to ask that of him but his love for harry demands he asks of it. He didn't ignore connor, he doesn't dismiss connor, he's not even ignoring harry's love for connor. He just realized if Harry went hten, Harry would die and not only would that destroy draco but it wouldn't help connor.
"I don't see how he is helping Harry in any possible way at the moment, then to keep him drugged up and discuss how to keep him down until Connor dies?" Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it wasn't there. Likely he is helping with runes and such. He's keeping Harry from killing himself but I guess that doesn't help anyone. And no he doesn't want connor to die, he wants to save connor. He never even said anything even resembling that they should keep Harry drugged up til connor dies.
(“The only other choice is keeping him drugged until Potter dies.” Snape’s voice showed strain of its own, now. “Do you suggest this? Especially when the Dark Lord might toy with his new pet for months?” ... “Not that,” said Draco. “But I think there’s one other thing that may work.” He hesitated for a long moment, then said, “Sir, will you leave us alone for a few minutes?” emphasis mine)
Does that sound like Draco wants to keep him drugged up until Connor is dead? To me it seems like Snape was pissy and threw that out there to be harsh and Draco was dismissive of even thinking of doing that. So where do you get this idea that Draco is just going to sit back and let Connor die?!
"Draco leaned nearer, wrapping him in strong arms, and murmured over and over again into his ear. “It’s not done, Harry. We can find a means to capture Evan Rosier and destroy the final Horcrux. And when that moment comes, I swear by Walpurgis and may the wild Dark destroy me if I do not keep my vow, I’ll go with you to find Connor. We’ll face Voldemort, Harry, and we’ll defeat him. The war will be over, and the world will be safe, and you’ll have all of us. Just promise me that you won’t go now, because I love you, and I need you.” (from ch 75)
"And why Draco was being egotistical; I understand that it could all have been some cunning desperate measure to keep Harry from trying to save Connor; but what Draco said was; Me or Connor? Can you justify it to have anyone make such a choice."
Draco is one sneaky slytherin ain't he? He used his intelligence, his knowledge of Harry's mind and heart to play Harry. As for can I justify it? Yes. Lord and Lady knows I would do the same if it meant saving someone I am in love with. Love isn't fair. Love isn't hearts and roses. Love is... doing the hard things even when it's not fair. I suggest you stop looking at the words and start looking at what they mean. Look at what Draco was 'saying' behind the words he was 'speaking'.
Re: Draco was wrong this time
anonymous
December 31 2006, 00:53:17 UTC
There are things more binding then webs, webs are just the magical equivalent of bonds, which we know aren't always physical.
It was not Him and death, it was him or connor, dead has always been a possibility, at any moment of the day, it is not like Harry choosing Draco would stop Voldemort from chasing after Harry, from chasing after Draco to hurt Harry.
And yes, I did see the thoughts behind the words, and those are the ones that disgust me. And there you go, if the chance of dead would incapacitate Harry at every turn, why would the danger leave of Harry leaving Draco's side once Connor is death, does that mean Harry can never do anything anymore? Love is not fair, but that has been covered in the last 5 chapters of this saga, Harry IS always in danger, what is different now?
And just because Draco found a better way, a more cunnign way, a more cruel way to incapacitate Harry, a way that doesn't even stop Harry from seeing every single second of Connors death, doesn't make it alright, doesn't mean the motivation behind it isn't as sick.
And it seems you keep forgetting that it is not about killing Voldemort, killing Voldemort is not possible until the last Hocrux is destroyed as you keep saying, however that does not mean they can do NOTHING.
Also making up hypothetical situations, of someone working on runes that we don't know about, have never heard of? I won't even comment on that. If they were doing something, then they should have assured Harry that they were doing everything they possibily could, wouldn't this have been the most imperative message to get across, that there is a possibility to save Connor, instead of discussing how it can take months till Connor will die? If they were doing something, why was that such a possibly scenario, not if we fail it can take months, but just with no possibility of relieve "ït can take months".
Neither does trying to save Connor insure Harry his death, as neither staying with Draco insurers Harry's sanity, his believe that this war is worth it, that he has a chance to win even if the last Hocrux is destroyed.
I just read the next chapter, and I still hold firmly with my point, if Harry was kidnapped after finding Voldemorts location... he might have had the element of surprise, or he could have told his allies and they could have gone to. Now Harry is there on the field, alone, what to do what to do what to do
Re: Draco was wrong this timelightningwaveJanuary 1 2007, 19:49:03 UTC
Draco didn't see that there was anything they could do right then. They had no information on where Voldemort had taken Connor, what kind of traps he had set, what he was doing just then- Harry was experiencing the visions, but couldn't describe them, because he wasn't rational enough to do so- and, at first, no way of restraining Harry other than the Dreamless Sleep Potion. Harry was on the verge of just rushing out and stumbling straight into the trap. He wouldn't have taken anyone with him if he'd managed to sneak out. Drugging him was one way to keep him still until he was rational enough to talk to Draco and Snape and ask for help, but also a way to get him away from the visions and the pain.
I really don't think it has anything to do with the vates idea. Yes, Harry's free will is being impinged upon, but in the end, he was the one who chose to stay still. And Draco doesn't have the same committment to maintaining his partner's free will.
As for raising an army or something like that, all that would have done is give Voldemort more people to drain magic out of when they went to him. There's no way that he would keep his promise and let Connor go. If Harry was rational, he would have known that, but he was very far from rational.
The only way to get Connor out safely was to kill Voldemort- and, as you probably know by now, he turned out to have two Horcruxes, not one, left.
Harry just destroyed his entire future, how can he be vates, the epitome of doing what is right not what is easy and stay, how can Draco?
Draco probably being his egotistical self, has crossed the line, as has Snape, as has Voldemort. But I guess neither Draco and Voldemort actually care about this metaphorical line, but I guess I forgot about how Draco is portrayed in the book and what you wished to maintain of the seed of evilness within them. I guess you tried to portray the unfairness of it all, but I think you told me more since I always knew what to expect from Voldemort, but didn't think Draco was on par.
Doing absolutely nothing... if that does not destroy Harry as vates then I must have gotten the totally wrong idea of all the chapters. How can be a war leader, a vates if he can not stand by what he believes, and this time it wasn't Voldemorts fault, at all.
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Being vates does not mean being "the epitome of [all that is] right." It means never impinging on the free will of others unless that person's will is infringing on someone else's. It means trying to give humans and creatures alike the freedom they deserve.
Draco is not vates. Draco does not have to respect others' free will as Harry does. Draco can do whatever the hell he pleases. Either way, I do not consider Draco's actions to be in violation of Harry's free will in any way. He essentially gave him an ultimatum. Stay, or sacrifice Draco, Snape, and the rest of wizarding Britain. It was a choice. Draco did not demand or force Harry to stay. He simply give him a probable scenario of what would happen if Harry didn't stay. No, it wasn't a nice choice. But if they want any chance of winning the war, it was the necessary choice.
So, please, explain to me just how that deals with Harry being vates because I just cannot see it.
-Kairi
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When Harry was faced with the willing sacrifice of the centaur, he did it why? The centaur was a willing sacrifice but why was Harry willing to be his killer, because he is vates right? He had a compulsion to do it, since 1) it looked like the only possibility, 2) it furthered his path as vates by freeing an entire herd of centaurs.
But lets return to Voldemort, the only certainty we are faced with is that Harry can not kill Voldemort, right? We do not know if Harry would die, we do not know if Harry can save Connor. We do not know if one of Voldemort spells is a boobytrap that would kill connor the moment he leaves, all we have is the fact that Harry his brother has been taken, to hurt Harry.
Harry put it the best way in this chapter, if it was anybody else Harry would have gone, if it was Draco, if it was Snape, what is different between Connor and Draco? I understand that Draco justified his actions in his own mind by saying he is Slytherin, that he did it TO SAVE HIMSELF? Ok, lets for the hypothetical sense assume this was some cunning action by Draco to keep Harry from going to Connor, a measure of desperation if you will; why? All we know is that Harry can not kill Voldemort, but what does that have to do with anything. Last time Voldemort threatend Draco Harry put a freaking hole in his magical core, he crippled him, against the odds. When Falco lured Harry into the paths that he knew nothing about, that he was not sure about if he would return, he once again faced the trials and overcame them.
Now we have Harry here, faced with the certainty Connor is being inhumanly tortured, that Voldemort is doing it. Here is a monstrous but probably truthful thought, can Harry kill connor over the twin bond?
Can Draco control Voldemort through Harry for one second to make a torture device slip, or to get the location from his mind as he's occupied with Harry's.
Does one of Snapes contact maybe know something about the location, the spells Voldemort is performing?
Could Harry rally all the magical creatures, maybe even Dobby to swoop in and take connor, can they do ANYTHING but talk about how to incapacitate Harry until Connor dies?
I really don't see how you can justify any such thinking?
Draco being killed because Harry is dead and Voldemort is just being his usual evil self would devastate Harry. Connor being killed and to later found out Dobby knew where they were? That would kill him.
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Well, okay, so this has nothing to do with Harry being vates and respecting free will and whatnot. And it really has nothing to do with Draco's plea at all, only Harry's decision to listen to Draco. Before, I thought you were trying to argue something along the lines of Draco being wrong in asking Harry to stay because Harry is vates. But now you're saying that's not it at all. Well, okay, as long as we're clear on that.
Anyway, I think Harry did the right thing here. Connor is important yes, but is he more important than Draco, Snape, and the rest of the world? Voldemort could not be killed then, so Harry would just be setting himself up for disaster. What happens if Harry is killed? Who is to stop Voldemort then? Harry is a commander now; he must put the importance of the war effort over his own personal desires.
I'm not sure what you're trying to add to your argument with the students Harry had to kill and the centaurs. He's willing to do the right thing, even when it isn't easy? Because if that's your point, I think you're detracting from your argument. It is much harder to sit there, watch your twin brother get tortured, and endure it than it is to obey Voldemort's command so said twin could go free. The former takes a much stronger will than the latter. The latter is what is known as recklessness.
"Here is a monstrous but probably truthful thought, can Harry kill connor over the twin bond?"
Harry doesn't want to kill Connor. He wants his twin back alive if at all possible.
"Can Draco control Voldemort through Harry for one second to make a torture device slip, or to get the location from his mind as he's occupied with Harry's."
There is no torture device. Voldemort is using magic to torture Connor. Magic, and a little girl that was sliced up and eaten. So no, Draco could not have made any sort of "torture device" slip. As for the location, all Harry had to do was ask. This was demonstrated in Chapter 76.
"Does one of Snapes contact maybe know something about the location, the spells Voldemort is performing?"
What "contacts" are you referring to? In case it has escaped your notice, Voldemort is alone. All his Death Eaters are dead or have sided with Harry. There are no "contacts" for the outed traitor Snape. Anyway, as mentioned above, Harry got the location easily enough.
"Could Harry rally all the magical creatures, maybe even Dobby to swoop in and take connor, can they do ANYTHING but talk about how to incapacitate Harry until Connor dies?"
I understand the helplessness you must be feeling. And you know what? They were helpless. I'm sure they would have been discussing rescue methods, but Draco and Snape had to ensure that Harry wouldn't do something foolish like sacrifice himself (and the war) first. One step at a time here. Oh and about Dobby? It's not like Harry has a magical cell phone to dial Dobby up. Besides, he probably doesn't feel like he has a right to request such things from the freed house elf. Vates and all, ya know? How the hell would Dobby know where Voldemort was anyway? Dobby's more concerned about house elf freedom than Harry's affairs.
-Kairi
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I'm certainly not implying Harry should put Connor over the whole war effort, and i'm not saying Harry chose wrong in light of the information he got. I'm saying Draco was not just cunning but acted pure evil in proposing Harry with that choice, which said, Me or Connor. Now Harry had to choose, while it was never actually a matter of choosing since there was a third option that Draco basically eliminated; Me AND Connor. It isn't like dead would have been definite if Harry were to go, and even then Harry has beat that odds many times already. I'm not saying that he will again, but the reason that he is the commander, why we all love him so much is that he will do something. In the past he has taken options less then the best one, rushing into situation he knew nothing about while he could have easily gotten more information. This time though, Harry hasn't done anything, and didn't make the decision to wait in light of more information but to give up on saving Connor until he has Draco's permission.
Now that chapter 76 has come out, and we're referring to it; Now Harry is going anyway, so I guess this discussion has become a little futile. But I do wonder; what has changed? now he's going to save connor by killing Voldemort, if he can beat him now, what stood in the way before? Don't forget there are worse things then death, such as another hole in his magical core, to be ripped out of existence, to be beaten to a pulp; can he do that now? is that why he's going? Couldn't he have done that before.
And as you said, getting Connors location was as easy as asking, but Harry didn't ask anybody. I took Dobby as an example since he's now sort of... lol ascended and knows of a lot of things, to point out the fact that Harry has many many allies.
Harry could also have convened the Alliance, to have them all come to Hogwarts, which would also secure Draco and Snape since they would be among so many allies? He could have called upon Dobby a being of almost pure magic to construct a shield, to take Draco with him to the other side of the world, to hide snape with the Unicorns, to hide him in France, or wherever, just for a second, and if Draco or Snape wanted to accompany Harry, then I guess its their choice to.
There are soooo many things that could have been done, but instead of reassuring Harry of all the possibilities, they drugged him to sleep, and basically condemned Connor to dead, even stating within the ROOM THAT HARRY IS SLEEPING IN that Voldemort can use him as his torture toy for months.
This all comes back to Draco's reasoning, intentions and the act. What were to happen if Voldemort kills Connor now? Harry would actually be justified in his thinking that he gave up on his brother?
And even then, while Harry was sleeping for HOURS (as dreamless normally lasts) Draco and Snape either decided not to convene the alliance so that they may be ready to go at a moments notice, and thought they could do it by themselves, or Harry was the only person who could do this and rather then informing him of these options decided to drug him once again.
I don't know maybe its just me, and i'm totally wrong in my thinking and for some reason that lightning didn't say those things werent possible options.
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And how in all the names do you get that by not going to Connor, Harry isn't Vates? Being Vates means standing between the dark and the light. It means binding no one by force but allowing choices. It means opposing slavery. It means not allowing others to control you nor forcing your control on anyone else. How is Draco telling Harry to not go make Harry not vates? Didn't Harry try that road before? Allowing everyone's hurts make him react rather than thinking. We already know that Harry can't think straight. Who could when they are watching thier TWIN being tortured so brutally!?
Draco is being totally slyth, he besically told Harry: "Don't let Voldemort lead you around by the nose because he has your brother. If you love Connor, remember that unless we kill Voldie, he will come back and hurt him again! Stay, make a choice... my plan or Connor."
To call him egotistical in this matter is beyond the pale! He is willing to go rescue Connor. Connor is his brother-in-law and he does care for him... especially as part of his family. Draco understands Harry huts, he understands that Connor is his equal in Harry's heart, different section but he understands! He is huting for Harry and if he could would suffer the visions for Harry. He's being practical because he doesn't want Harry to rush off, have Connor be killed, and then Harry will blame himself! Seems very non-egotistical to me!
As for your accusation that they are doing nothing?! Apparently you idn't see them fail at bringing Evan into thier hands yesterday. They are trying, if they couldn't find Evan as he was, they need to find out who and where he is now. That's what they are doing. They are researching ways to find the cup and Evan-whoever-he-is-now. But yeah,I guess trying to find the cup is 'Nothing'. They are also taking care of Harry and trying to find out where Connor is. They are trying to make plans, we and Harry can't see it because he's in pain. Draco is more consumed with Harry's pain so that using him in planning is sorta not a good idea. He won't concentrate well.
I suggest you reread the series because I think you have missed some of the discussions on what is vates.
Later
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You have to recognize that something should be done about Connor? And who is the best option? I think this is where it becomes evident why at moment like this the world is not fair for ANYBODY, not for Draco, connor or Harry. However, here Draco made the decision to now only not stand by Harry, but also prevent him from doing so for someone else.
And how this stands in the way of him being vates? Someones free will is being scorned, its smart to take preventive measures, to make your chances of success as high as possible, doing nothing however should not be an option, especially since what I have learned and Harry as said, when there is a choice between doing what is easy and what is right, do you think they have taken the right action or the easy one? It sounds cruel since death becomes a great possibility when it comes to doing what is right.
Oh, and I really don't see what Evan has to do with this, i'm not talking about killing Voldemort, i'm talking about saving/ending Connors (pain).
And why Draco was being egotistical; I understand that it could all have been some cunning desperate measure to keep Harry from trying to save Connor; but what Draco said was; Me or Connor? Can you justify it to have anyone make such a choice.
Do you know that now if Connor dies, which is the biggest possibility, after hours more of torture which Harry will witness, Harry will be justified in his guilt of Connors death, he gave him up didn't he? no matter how much you twist and turn it, Draco was a bastard for consciously putting forward this definite in Harry's mind, that they would be OVER if he were to go. Not that Draco would die, just that it would be over, that he would give p on Harry, just as Draco is asking Harry to do for this brother.
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"And how this stands in the way of him being vates? Someones free will is being scorned," Being vates doesn't mean you protect everyone's free will from EVERYONE else. It means you don't impinge on other's free will. It means you don't let others be enslaved. It means you speak for those who can not speak for themselves. It means you let those who can save themselves do so, those who can't help them, and those who insist on self destruction to do so. If Henrietta was suicidal, he could not stop her. If she was merely depressed, then he would help her back. Connor was stolen by voldie to make harry react without thought. Connor is being tortured by voldie and yes they want to help him. Better though they make a plan. Proper Previous Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance. Let me mention that lightning doesn't tell us what else is happening with the others, she concentrates on Harry. So for all we know Draco could be napping with harry after spending hours trying to invent a spell to steal Connor back. She doesn't say so we don't know, therefore to say that they are doing nothing is wrong. You don't know that and considering who Connor is, I believe they are doing quite a bit!
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"The best way to spare connor anymore pain is to oh I don't know.... KILL voldie?" - interesting I thought you were the one who said, he can't be killed yet. So I guess thats not the BEST WAYYYYY. Omg, can you please let go of the thought of killing Voldemort, thats not what this is about, it is about stopping Connors pain.
"If Henrietta was suicidal, he could not stop her." Well if she wanted to blow herself up in the middle of hogwarts, then yes he could stop her. No he can't do it if she wants to do it to herself, however, if in the act someone tramples upon anothers free will, then yes, he is fully in the right to step in, is he not? Is that not what vates is. The house-elves don't wanna be freed, they wanna work for him? He frees them because that is what he does.
Bonds break just because he exists, right?
I don't know if lightning approved the post I made after this one, but if they are doing something, isn't it better to have Harry help them, then to keep him drugged? Is it not better to convince him to save Connor in the best way possible!!! as you said, then drug him into dreamless sleep, which since it has always been hours, hours must have passed while he was sleeping, hours wasted away, like it was absolutely nothing, as if the world and Connors hurting went on pause or something like that.
As if Harry would not have seen every single second of Connors pain.
Yes, i've read the next chapter, but to even refer to Henrietta as any justification for anything would be ludicrous because that would be relying on luck. Yes they could have worked on runes, especially Draco since he's so good at inventing spells. However, I still do think Harry holds the Lord-level power so he can power even stronger runes. But wait oops, he's sleeping.
Ah well, now Harry is going anyway, so I guess this discussion has become futile. But I do wonder; what has changed? now he's going to save connor by killing Voldemort, if he can beat him now, what stood in the way before? Don't forget there are worse things then death, such as another hole in his magical core, to be ripped out of existence, to be beaten to a pulp; can he do that now? is that why he's going? Well, I guess he could have done that before.
The Hocrux ONLY PROTECTS FROM DEATH not pain, not apparation, or anything like that. So if its not a matter of Voldermort being indestructable, what can he do now that he could not do before? Of its nothing, then why priorities it over saving Connor?
Ah well, I guess i'm just a little silly, thinking, doing nothing is unacceptable.
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Yes Draco said Him or Me... Him (and Death) or Me (and a Chance)? Draco meant to paralyze Harry with a choice. He wanted Harry to be pulled by equal forces . He wanted him frozen. Once he froze, Draco used emotional arguments and logical arguments to get Harry to promise not to run off half-cocked. Go back and reread the part. Draco even admitted he wasn't playing fair, he admitted that he needs and loves harry. He said he had no right to ask that of him but his love for harry demands he asks of it. He didn't ignore connor, he doesn't dismiss connor, he's not even ignoring harry's love for connor. He just realized if Harry went hten, Harry would die and not only would that destroy draco but it wouldn't help connor.
"I don't see how he is helping Harry in any possible way at the moment, then to keep him drugged up and discuss how to keep him down until Connor dies?" Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it wasn't there. Likely he is helping with runes and such. He's keeping Harry from killing himself but I guess that doesn't help anyone. And no he doesn't want connor to die, he wants to save connor. He never even said anything even resembling that they should keep Harry drugged up til connor dies.
(“The only other choice is keeping him drugged until Potter dies.” Snape’s voice showed strain of its own, now. “Do you suggest this? Especially when the Dark Lord might toy with his new pet for months?”
...
“Not that,” said Draco. “But I think there’s one other thing that may work.” He hesitated for a long moment, then said, “Sir, will you leave us alone for a few minutes?” emphasis mine)
Does that sound like Draco wants to keep him drugged up until Connor is dead? To me it seems like Snape was pissy and threw that out there to be harsh and Draco was dismissive of even thinking of doing that. So where do you get this idea that Draco is just going to sit back and let Connor die?!
"Draco leaned nearer, wrapping him in strong arms, and murmured over and over again into his ear. “It’s not done, Harry. We can find a means to capture Evan Rosier and destroy the final Horcrux. And when that moment comes, I swear by Walpurgis and may the wild Dark destroy me if I do not keep my vow, I’ll go with you to find Connor. We’ll face Voldemort, Harry, and we’ll defeat him. The war will be over, and the world will be safe, and you’ll have all of us. Just promise me that you won’t go now, because I love you, and I need you.” (from ch 75)
"And why Draco was being egotistical; I understand that it could all have been some cunning desperate measure to keep Harry from trying to save Connor; but what Draco said was; Me or Connor? Can you justify it to have anyone make such a choice."
Draco is one sneaky slytherin ain't he? He used his intelligence, his knowledge of Harry's mind and heart to play Harry. As for can I justify it? Yes. Lord and Lady knows I would do the same if it meant saving someone I am in love with. Love isn't fair. Love isn't hearts and roses. Love is... doing the hard things even when it's not fair. I suggest you stop looking at the words and start looking at what they mean. Look at what Draco was 'saying' behind the words he was 'speaking'.
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It was not Him and death, it was him or connor, dead has always been a possibility, at any moment of the day, it is not like Harry choosing Draco would stop Voldemort from chasing after Harry, from chasing after Draco to hurt Harry.
And yes, I did see the thoughts behind the words, and those are the ones that disgust me. And there you go, if the chance of dead would incapacitate Harry at every turn, why would the danger leave of Harry leaving Draco's side once Connor is death, does that mean Harry can never do anything anymore? Love is not fair, but that has been covered in the last 5 chapters of this saga, Harry IS always in danger, what is different now?
And just because Draco found a better way, a more cunnign way, a more cruel way to incapacitate Harry, a way that doesn't even stop Harry from seeing every single second of Connors death, doesn't make it alright, doesn't mean the motivation behind it isn't as sick.
And it seems you keep forgetting that it is not about killing Voldemort, killing Voldemort is not possible until the last Hocrux is destroyed as you keep saying, however that does not mean they can do NOTHING.
Also making up hypothetical situations, of someone working on runes that we don't know about, have never heard of? I won't even comment on that. If they were doing something, then they should have assured Harry that they were doing everything they possibily could, wouldn't this have been the most imperative message to get across, that there is a possibility to save Connor, instead of discussing how it can take months till Connor will die? If they were doing something, why was that such a possibly scenario, not if we fail it can take months, but just with no possibility of relieve "ït can take months".
Neither does trying to save Connor insure Harry his death, as neither staying with Draco insurers Harry's sanity, his believe that this war is worth it, that he has a chance to win even if the last Hocrux is destroyed.
I just read the next chapter, and I still hold firmly with my point, if Harry was kidnapped after finding Voldemorts location... he might have had the element of surprise, or he could have told his allies and they could have gone to. Now Harry is there on the field, alone, what to do what to do what to do
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I really don't think it has anything to do with the vates idea. Yes, Harry's free will is being impinged upon, but in the end, he was the one who chose to stay still. And Draco doesn't have the same committment to maintaining his partner's free will.
As for raising an army or something like that, all that would have done is give Voldemort more people to drain magic out of when they went to him. There's no way that he would keep his promise and let Connor go. If Harry was rational, he would have known that, but he was very far from rational.
The only way to get Connor out safely was to kill Voldemort- and, as you probably know by now, he turned out to have two Horcruxes, not one, left.
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