I like that Childermass has a sense of fantasy narrative. All through the text, while everyone else is stumbling into their roles, he's the only one who acts like he's actually read faerie stories.
She doesn't explain the nature of the magic. But hey I'm willing to be convinced otherwise =^) Or at least hear a good counterargument.
*g* Well, you know, I didn't love this novel for being original, because the truth is there's (deliberately, I would think) not a lot of original elements in it. Rather, it's about the synthesis to me. It's the British mythology, the Austen, the Patrick O'Brian, the Peter Wimsey... To me the Stephen Black/Man with the Thistledown Hair worked because it was essentially fanfiction of faerie stories, taking the original tale and subverting it with both the realities of race and class and the real-life knowledge of how those stories were often used to explain mental illness in the past.
I was reminded all through it of the Terry Pratchett take on elves and how the popular view of them has changed with the times:
Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder. Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels. Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies. Elves are glamorous. They project glamour. Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment. Elves are terrific. They beget terror.
As for the subversiveness of the ending...well, I took it as gospel, so to speak, when Vinculus attributed the leads' actions to the Raven King's spell, and so I loved how it falls into place that the leads-who are protagonists in the classical English sense-have no real agency at all, and are stuck in the dark when it comes to it, while it's women, a black man, and two poor white men, who act. There's definitely some interesting stuff going on about English history and identity with these historically marginalized people and how the professionalization of magic ends up affecting them.
*coughs* I suspect I may be rambling, so I'll just say that yes, I think this book may not hold up to a straight reading, but as pastiche it has a lot of cleverness in it.
Aww thank you *grins* I can't seem to let it die anyway. It's a part of me in a way I can't excise, so wadda ya gonna do?
I hear you. :-) Right now, my real goal is to find a job with nice 9-5, M-F hours like I'm enjoying now, but that actually provides a living wage, so that I can spend my evenings and weekends merrily typing away.
I like that Childermass has a sense of fantasy narrative. All through the text, while everyone else is stumbling into their roles, he's the only one who acts like he's actually read faerie stories.
Interesting point. I never looked at him that way. He struck me as the only one who actually had respect for the Raven King and actually BELIEVED in him. Maybe that's similar?
*g* Well, you know, I didn't love this novel for being original, because the truth is there's (deliberately, I would think) not a lot of original elements in it. Rather, it's about the synthesis to me. It's the British mythology, the Austen, the Patrick O'Brian, the Peter Wimsey... To me the Stephen Black/Man with the Thistledown Hair worked because it was essentially fanfiction of faerie stories, taking the original tale and subverting it with both the realities of race and class and the real-life knowledge of how those stories were often used to explain mental illness in the past.
Hmm, intriguing...I guess the novel did strike me as original because of the combination of elements like you said. Although I don't know who Patrick O'Brien is and I only know of Peter Wimsey through our public broadcasting networks airing of the Lord Peter Wimsey detective series. =^)
I was reminded all through it of the Terry Pratchett take on elves and how the popular view of them has changed with the times:
Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder. Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels. Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies. Elves are glamorous. They project glamour. Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment. Elves are terrific. They beget terror.
See I've never read Terry Pratchett, in novel form anyway. I might have read a short story from an anthology. I would look at the books in the book store and read the back summary and something would leave me cold. I know I suppose it's expected that I should read Pratchett or Gaiman but they don't intrigue me. I prefer Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale or Marion Zimmer Bradley's The Mists of Avalon.
As for the subversiveness of the ending...well, I took it as gospel, so to speak, when Vinculus attributed the leads' actions to the Raven King's spell, and so I loved how it falls into place that the leads-who are protagonists in the classical English sense-have no real agency at all, and are stuck in the dark when it comes to it, while it's women, a black man, and two poor white men, who act. There's definitely some interesting stuff going on about English history and identity with these historically marginalized people and how the professionalization of magic ends up affecting them. Yeah but I guess I never quite got that from Vinculus. Or rather I suppose it's more accurate to say I never saw the Raven King as being that powerful. Or rather it's like the Raven King was 2 people, one the nameless slave and two the legend of the Raven King. And not knowing, not having any hint of how that transformatino took place annoys me. And also, she seems to imply the fairies were nothing until John Uskglass came along. If so, then why did the Raven King gain so much power? I actually though of him, when I read the book the second time, as being something of that cliche of the white man taking over as leader of the native people. So I guess I didn't get what she was getting at. And I never caught the subversiveness of Stephen et al cause I never quite saw Stephen as being an independent agent the way Childermass and crazy behind Vinculus were. But I respect your points. I think they could be arguably correct. I just kinda didn't see it that way. But I see your point =^)
*coughs* I suspect I may be rambling, so I'll just say that yes, I think this book may not hold up to a straight reading, but as pastiche it has a lot of cleverness in it.
Fair enough +^) And I enjoyed your points. I haven't had anyone to talk to about the book with.
I hear you. :-) Right now, my real goal is to find a job with nice 9-5, M-F hours like I'm enjoying now, but that actually provides a living wage, so that I can spend my evenings and weekends merrily typing away.
On the (marvellous) subject of books: Patrick O'Brian was the author of the Aubrey/Maturin series of books, which were set during the Napoleonic war. Great stuff, and the movie based on the series, Master and Commander, was really good too.
If Pratchett's Discworld isn't your speed, I'd actually really recommend his Nation, which is about the nature of religious belief and colonialism, and which is certainly silly in parts but also had me sobbing like a baby within the first thirty pages.
I've actually been on an Atwood kick myself, lately, trying to read more Canadiana. Have you read any of her other stuff? I recently read The Robber Bride and the The Blind Assassin and just adored them both.
On the (marvellous) subject of books: Patrick O'Brian was the author of the Aubrey/Maturin series of books, which were set during the Napoleonic war. Great stuff, and the movie based on the series, Master and Commander, was really good too.
Hmm, I've heard of Master and Commander. I'm not a big fan of the Napoleonic period but I'll look it up on IMDB
If Pratchett's Discworld isn't your speed, I'd actually really recommend his Nation, which is about the nature of religious belief and colonialism, and which is certainly silly in parts but also had me sobbing like a baby within the first thirty pages.
I'll look it up on Amazaon. I have to admit though, when it comes to what I read, I'm like one of those awful little children who pokes at the filet mignon on their plate complaining that it's not a cheeseburger and can I have some ketchup, lol
I've actually been on an Atwood kick myself, lately, trying to read more Canadiana. Have you read any of her other stuff? I recently read The Robber Bride and the The Blind Assassin and just adored them both.
I've read Life Before Man, which was quite conventional but which I remember enjoying. It was about a love triangle. Married man academic has an affair with his graduate assistant. Wife is cold but had a tortured past. Interesting. Hmph. I may have to re-read that. It's been years and I barely remember any details. But I did enjoy it. I also tried to read Bluebeard's Egg but I never finished it. Can't even remember what I read in it. Hmm, may have to crack that one open again too. And I may still have Lady Oracle floating around here somewhere. But I didn't read that at all. Well guess I got some fiction to check out. It's funny. I'm currently on hiatus from reading The French Lieutenant's Woman and I think John Fowles reminds me a wee bit of Atwood.
Oh I've also read Possession by A.S. Byatt. LOVED it although it was a bit dense and inside baseball. But I bow before the sheer audacity of it, most especially all the poetry. I'm not learned enough to judge it critically. But I'm just staggered by her simply doing a credible enough job to fool me, lol. She also has a short story collection that's a bit magical. I have a thing for fairy tales.
In that case, if I can press Pratchett's suit, his Witch's Abroad and the aforementioned Lords and Ladies are quite good. But then, as established, I am a huge fan of good meta and I love stories about stories.
I have to admit though, when it comes to what I read, I'm like one of those awful little children who pokes at the filet mignon on their plate complaining that it's not a cheeseburger and can I have some ketchup, lol
*laughs* I'm a picky reader too. I once entered into a book exchange with a friend in which we sent off our favourite books for each other to read, and I grew more and more embarrassed as I continued to flat out hate everything that was sent to me. I have very particular squicks and my friend's favourites just happened to hit them.
In that case, if I can press Pratchett's suit, his Witch's Abroad and the aforementioned Lords and Ladies are quite good. But then, as established, I am a huge fan of good meta and I love stories about stories.
Hmm, I didn't know Pratchett did fairy tale related stuff...* plans a trip to Bor- I mean Barnes and Nobles ( spares a tear for Borders * sigh *) *
*laughs* I'm a picky reader too. I once entered into a book exchange with a friend in which we sent off our favourite books for each other to read, and I grew more and more embarrassed as I continued to flat out hate everything that was sent to me. I have very particular squicks and my friend's favourites just happened to hit them.
Oh isn't that awful? I always feel SO bad when that happens, like I'm being a snob...or the little kid trying to plop some ketchup on filet mignon, lol.
Oh isn't that awful? I always feel SO bad when that happens, like I'm being a snob...or the little kid trying to plop some ketchup on filet mignon, lol.
Exactly. I had that friend insist, insist, insist that I was going to just love a certain Sarah Waters book that she loved, and this was finally going to be the book we agreed on. This got built up for weeks, and when I finally read it...not only did I hate it, but I felt like I had just spat on the thing. But, different strokes for different folks, right?
Yeah. ...I suppose regular, non-bookish folk don't get upset over things like this, lol. But I do. It makes it hard for me to follow someone's recommendation cause I know I'll hate it. That doesn't happen as much with fan fic though. I mean I'm not a huge Minerva fan or femme-slash fan so when I get lots of femme-slash Minerva-centric recs, I feel bad that I can't read and give feedback cause I know I'll be either bleh, or won't like it. Same for threesomes. And I feel bad that I can't support folk who write it or rec it =^/ I run into the same problem whenever anyone suggests Stephen King. He's a good writer, but I can't read him, lol. I'll be hiding under the bed if I do!
Interesting. You know, I've found my fanfic tastes have changed a lot more than my profic tastes over the years. The novels I loved as a teenager still, with a few overly purple exceptions, hold up to re-reading, but the fanfiction I liked then was very...well, sweet but bland is probably the best description.
I like that Childermass has a sense of fantasy narrative. All through the text, while everyone else is stumbling into their roles, he's the only one who acts like he's actually read faerie stories.
She doesn't explain the nature of the magic. But hey I'm willing to be convinced otherwise =^) Or at least hear a good counterargument.
*g* Well, you know, I didn't love this novel for being original, because the truth is there's (deliberately, I would think) not a lot of original elements in it. Rather, it's about the synthesis to me. It's the British mythology, the Austen, the Patrick O'Brian, the Peter Wimsey... To me the Stephen Black/Man with the Thistledown Hair worked because it was essentially fanfiction of faerie stories, taking the original tale and subverting it with both the realities of race and class and the real-life knowledge of how those stories were often used to explain mental illness in the past.
I was reminded all through it of the Terry Pratchett take on elves and how the popular view of them has changed with the times:
Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.
As for the subversiveness of the ending...well, I took it as gospel, so to speak, when Vinculus attributed the leads' actions to the Raven King's spell, and so I loved how it falls into place that the leads-who are protagonists in the classical English sense-have no real agency at all, and are stuck in the dark when it comes to it, while it's women, a black man, and two poor white men, who act. There's definitely some interesting stuff going on about English history and identity with these historically marginalized people and how the professionalization of magic ends up affecting them.
*coughs* I suspect I may be rambling, so I'll just say that yes, I think this book may not hold up to a straight reading, but as pastiche it has a lot of cleverness in it.
Aww thank you *grins* I can't seem to let it die anyway. It's a part of me in a way I can't excise, so wadda ya gonna do?
I hear you. :-) Right now, my real goal is to find a job with nice 9-5, M-F hours like I'm enjoying now, but that actually provides a living wage, so that I can spend my evenings and weekends merrily typing away.
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Interesting point. I never looked at him that way. He struck me as the only one who actually had respect for the Raven King and actually BELIEVED in him. Maybe that's similar?
*g* Well, you know, I didn't love this novel for being original, because the truth is there's (deliberately, I would think) not a lot of original elements in it. Rather, it's about the synthesis to me. It's the British mythology, the Austen, the Patrick O'Brian, the Peter Wimsey... To me the Stephen Black/Man with the Thistledown Hair worked because it was essentially fanfiction of faerie stories, taking the original tale and subverting it with both the realities of race and class and the real-life knowledge of how those stories were often used to explain mental illness in the past.
Hmm, intriguing...I guess the novel did strike me as original because of the combination of elements like you said. Although I don't know who Patrick O'Brien is and I only know of Peter Wimsey through our public broadcasting networks airing of the Lord Peter Wimsey detective series. =^)
I was reminded all through it of the Terry Pratchett take on elves and how the popular view of them has changed with the times:
Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.
See I've never read Terry Pratchett, in novel form anyway. I might have read a short story from an anthology. I would look at the books in the book store and read the back summary and something would leave me cold. I know I suppose it's expected that I should read Pratchett or Gaiman but they don't intrigue me. I prefer Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale or Marion Zimmer Bradley's The Mists of Avalon.
As for the subversiveness of the ending...well, I took it as gospel, so to speak, when Vinculus attributed the leads' actions to the Raven King's spell, and so I loved how it falls into place that the leads-who are protagonists in the classical English sense-have no real agency at all, and are stuck in the dark when it comes to it, while it's women, a black man, and two poor white men, who act. There's definitely some interesting stuff going on about English history and identity with these historically marginalized people and how the professionalization of magic ends up affecting them.
Yeah but I guess I never quite got that from Vinculus. Or rather I suppose it's more accurate to say I never saw the Raven King as being that powerful. Or rather it's like the Raven King was 2 people, one the nameless slave and two the legend of the Raven King. And not knowing, not having any hint of how that transformatino took place annoys me. And also, she seems to imply the fairies were nothing until John Uskglass came along. If so, then why did the Raven King gain so much power? I actually though of him, when I read the book the second time, as being something of that cliche of the white man taking over as leader of the native people. So I guess I didn't get what she was getting at. And I never caught the subversiveness of Stephen et al cause I never quite saw Stephen as being an independent agent the way Childermass and crazy behind Vinculus were. But I respect your points. I think they could be arguably correct. I just kinda didn't see it that way. But I see your point =^)
*coughs* I suspect I may be rambling, so I'll just say that yes, I think this book may not hold up to a straight reading, but as pastiche it has a lot of cleverness in it.
Fair enough +^) And I enjoyed your points. I haven't had anyone to talk to about the book with.
I hear you. :-) Right now, my real goal is to find a job with nice 9-5, M-F hours like I'm enjoying now, but that actually provides a living wage, so that I can spend my evenings and weekends merrily typing away.
You and me both!
Reply
If Pratchett's Discworld isn't your speed, I'd actually really recommend his Nation, which is about the nature of religious belief and colonialism, and which is certainly silly in parts but also had me sobbing like a baby within the first thirty pages.
I've actually been on an Atwood kick myself, lately, trying to read more Canadiana. Have you read any of her other stuff? I recently read The Robber Bride and the The Blind Assassin and just adored them both.
Reply
Hmm, I've heard of Master and Commander. I'm not a big fan of the Napoleonic period but I'll look it up on IMDB
If Pratchett's Discworld isn't your speed, I'd actually really recommend his Nation, which is about the nature of religious belief and colonialism, and which is certainly silly in parts but also had me sobbing like a baby within the first thirty pages.
I'll look it up on Amazaon. I have to admit though, when it comes to what I read, I'm like one of those awful little children who pokes at the filet mignon on their plate complaining that it's not a cheeseburger and can I have some ketchup, lol
I've actually been on an Atwood kick myself, lately, trying to read more Canadiana. Have you read any of her other stuff? I recently read The Robber Bride and the The Blind Assassin and just adored them both.
I've read Life Before Man, which was quite conventional but which I remember enjoying. It was about a love triangle. Married man academic has an affair with his graduate assistant. Wife is cold but had a tortured past. Interesting. Hmph. I may have to re-read that. It's been years and I barely remember any details. But I did enjoy it. I also tried to read Bluebeard's Egg but I never finished it. Can't even remember what I read in it. Hmm, may have to crack that one open again too. And I may still have Lady Oracle floating around here somewhere. But I didn't read that at all. Well guess I got some fiction to check out. It's funny. I'm currently on hiatus from reading The French Lieutenant's Woman and I think John Fowles reminds me a wee bit of Atwood.
Oh I've also read Possession by A.S. Byatt. LOVED it although it was a bit dense and inside baseball. But I bow before the sheer audacity of it, most especially all the poetry. I'm not learned enough to judge it critically. But I'm just staggered by her simply doing a credible enough job to fool me, lol. She also has a short story collection that's a bit magical. I have a thing for fairy tales.
Reply
In that case, if I can press Pratchett's suit, his Witch's Abroad and the aforementioned Lords and Ladies are quite good. But then, as established, I am a huge fan of good meta and I love stories about stories.
I have to admit though, when it comes to what I read, I'm like one of those awful little children who pokes at the filet mignon on their plate complaining that it's not a cheeseburger and can I have some ketchup, lol
*laughs* I'm a picky reader too. I once entered into a book exchange with a friend in which we sent off our favourite books for each other to read, and I grew more and more embarrassed as I continued to flat out hate everything that was sent to me. I have very particular squicks and my friend's favourites just happened to hit them.
Reply
Hmm, I didn't know Pratchett did fairy tale related stuff...* plans a trip to Bor- I mean Barnes and Nobles ( spares a tear for Borders * sigh *) *
*laughs* I'm a picky reader too. I once entered into a book exchange with a friend in which we sent off our favourite books for each other to read, and I grew more and more embarrassed as I continued to flat out hate everything that was sent to me. I have very particular squicks and my friend's favourites just happened to hit them.
Oh isn't that awful? I always feel SO bad when that happens, like I'm being a snob...or the little kid trying to plop some ketchup on filet mignon, lol.
Reply
Exactly. I had that friend insist, insist, insist that I was going to just love a certain Sarah Waters book that she loved, and this was finally going to be the book we agreed on. This got built up for weeks, and when I finally read it...not only did I hate it, but I felt like I had just spat on the thing. But, different strokes for different folks, right?
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