Ha no, didn't feel attacked at all. Enjoyed all your posts. Quickly now because my daughter is yelling at me for juice, but 1) Japanese incest fascination as in the romanticizing of it in manga and anime and literature, not the pornification of it--that's what I don't get 2) I don't get what you meant by Orihime's Visored status? Could you explain? 3) Fairy tales. A lot depends whether we're talking about European ones or Chinese/Japanese stories. The unrequited love theme is a biggie in the latter; the happy ever after figures more in the former--actually not as often as Disney would have us believe. 4) Ichigo's reactions. He's bolted several times in the story only to be held back and scolded by Ishida, Renji, Yoruichi, Urahara, Rukia. You'll have to go a long way to show me that his passionate outbursts in the HM arc were indicative of romantic (even submerged, unknown) romantic feelings) for Orihime. I'd buy that they were if Kubo hadn't undercut the whole Orihime and Ichigo interaction of the GJ fight (which was so touching--so really touching--but imv, it just got them up to cruising speed in terms of a relationship whereas Ichigo and Rukia have already done that road trip) with the la-la-la blase attitude of Ichigo hoisting Orihime on his back after. The comedy seemed decidedly unromantic--whereas the Rukia and Ichigo SS "goodbye" scene seemed dead serious.
Issues of subjective interpretation in some instances, but I think there's a case to be made for where Kubo is going with his story. How much does it matter to me? A lot. Not in terms of what I write. I write more IchiIshi, IshiHime, and gen than RenRuki, but I've got a burning, burning desire to see the whole love aspect of this Rukia/Ichigo/Renji/Ishida polygon of doom thing resolved once and for all. Time will tell.
*headdesk on being called a BNF* You know I only found out this year what that was (I like to think of myself as a fan that types a helluva lot) Thank you for being polite and thorough and yes, you DEFINITELY succeeded at convincing me that all IchiOris aren't fifteen and dewey-eyed. Thank you!
1. I know what you meant -- I still kind of disagree. I've rarely seen incestuous vibes that weren't meant to be creepy. ("Oniisama" is always a good indicator of it. And yeah, I say that aware of what Rukia calls Byakuya, but she kind of has an excuse, and they're not really related anyway.) But if I had to make a wild stab at a culture I don't understand, I'd guess it's something to do with the way that the family unit itself is treated in Japan -- which is very different from the way it's treated in America, etc.
2. This one is very cut-and-dry -- Hachigen (the large vizard who uses his own abilities to "heal" Tsubaki-kun) pretty much states it. Her abilities are the same as his. I think this is a parallel to Chad's abilities, which he has similarly stated are like a hollow -- or, in his case, a bit like an arrancar. I've been wondering why Ichigo's massive reiatsu would awaken powers like these in his friends, and am hoping KT will touch on it at some point~.
3. I'm actually very familiar with the original Grim's fairy tales, so I know what you mean about happy endings. But I was really just pointing this out because of the seeming contradiction~. What I should have said instead was this: I don't think that Ichigo returning Orihime's feelings would guarantee anyone a happy ending, or necessarily make the story too neat and tidy. Really, I agree with the previous statement -- KT has steered clear of several big clichés thus far, and I doubt he would go for one right now.
I guess the immediate problem is that Main Male + Main Female is just as much of a cliché, would be every bit as predictable, etc. Fortunately, I trust KT to steer clear of all the annoying conventions, whichever route he goes.
I'll be very surprised if Orihime's affections don't get returned, though -- as much as you are right that unrequited love is a big theme (heck, everywhere), it's usually not done this way. A main character might get this much of a spotlight on his feelings and then be rejected, but minor characters destined for unrequited love usually get more of a brief footnote. Orihime's crush has been there, in the background, since word one -- and, perhaps more tellingly, she has mistakenly assumed Ichigo and Rukia's relationship was romantic several times. (Because even if it someday becomes romantic, you can't tell me it's canonically romantic right now.) And that, too, seems like more the kind of development that leads to her eventually getting her feelings returned than -- for, what, the third or fourth time? -- deciding Ichigo likes Rukia more, or is otherwise uninterested in her.
As a narrative device, it just doesn't quite make sense.
Of course, we all know KT loves his minor characters, so I could be overthinking things here, but -- there you go; have a babble.
4. I think you're comparing his hoisting Orihime to the wrong moment -- what about when Ichigo scooped up Rukia and then tossed her at Renji? That's much more the right point in the rescue, and was every bit as comedic, undercutting a previously soft moment. I think KT just likes to keep his squishy moments brief.
One of the reasons why I think that Ichigo's reaction there was uncharacteristic is that it isn't very proportional. It's not like his attempts to jerk free from more intelligent people in order to save the lives of his sisters, or stop Rukia from going with Byakuya, or anything else. Because Ichigo himself says that he is attacking Ulquiorra, not for hurting Orihime, not for putting her life in jeopardy, but for marking her a traitor. A suicidal reaction, of that magnitude, because Orihime was inconvenienced. That's what gets me, and makes it stand out.
While I tried to post that last comment, LJ stuttered and froze and I thought I'd lost it. Phew.
Continuing:
Although, going back and rereading the manga, I have to say that I see a similar kind of wildness in his reactions to her being menaced by her brother, too. (And that cute little aside, where he mutters to himself that, essentially, thinking about Orihime is stressful because she makes him worry. D: So adorable. So very Ichigo.)
We are so much at a crossroads here that I want to know what scenes you mean for Ichigo and Rukia that would put them on par with those sequences. It's not that I don't think they've had fluffy moments -- it really isn't. It's just that I don't think their fluffy moments are any more fluffy than Ichigo's fluffy moments with Chad.
(Which is actually something I love about this manga -- that, for example, Orihime goes to rescue Rukia for Rukia, because Rukia is her friend. [I know the anime adds in some bullshit about how she went for Ichigo, but that's in the filler episodes, and when Orihime gets there in the manga, she says very specifically that she wanted to rescue Rukia for Rukia's sake, not for Ichigo's sake.] Rukia wants to rescue Orihime for Orihime. Chad and Ishida want to rescue Orihime for Orihime. People actually love each other, instead of all being focused only on the main character.)
But I'll say again -- I see Ichigo's scenes with Orihime as things that would only happen with Orihime -- new facets to his personality that haven't been brought out before, even though he's been in similar circumstances with different people. Meanwhile, I see Rukia's scenes as being very typical of all Ichigo's friendships.
(And, as I add somewhere down below, part of what prevented me from being able to quite take Ichigo/Rukia as romantic was the realization that a lot of Ichigo's relationship with her -- which seems to involve a lot of being hit and going HEY what was that for?! -- was very similar to his relationship with Renji. And then the series went ahead and had the two of them actually take turns hitting and berating him, and I only felt it more strongly. So I can see a threesome there -- probably with Renji and Rukia dragging a very confused Ichigo into bed -- more easily than a twosome. Go figure.)
I absolutely agree that time will tell. I'm pretty sure I'm right on this -- obviously! XD But I have to add that I've still got some wiggle room; KT could convince me that he wasn't going to go in an Ichigo/Orihime direction. And, like you, I believe that it all kind of hinges on the coming chapters. For what it's worth, as I've also said elsewhere now, I see Ichigo/Orihime as a very slow-building thing, so I expect it to take quite a while before it comes to fruition; Ichigo is pretty dense, and I get the feeling, at present, that someone else would have to tell him Orihime liked him before he seriously put thought into it either way.
(Note, this is not the same as asking whether he's her boyfriend, as Shinji did -- that's an easy yes-or-no question, and does not require thought, especially in the middle of a tirade. Ichigo's response there sounds more like pushing it aside to avoid being distracted from his complaint than a thought-out answer.)
At present, as a demonstration of my level of relative open-mindedness on the issue, in the applications for my RPG, I would take points off characterization for an Orihime who wanted her not to be in love with Ichigo -- but not points off for an Ichigo who wanted him not to be in love with her. I think he is, and that we're seeing signs that the feelings are there, deep down -- but he certainly hasn't realized it yet, and so it is far from canon enough to count against an applicant. (Plus, when done well, Ichigo/Rukia is entertaining. Not quite my thing -- I really don't like the smacking-each-other form of courtship so very popular in anime XD -- but entertaining nonetheless.)
/babble
When your excited rants get linked at bleach_news, I think it's time to admit that you might be a BNF. ;) (Is that anything like "You might be a redneck"?)
Thoroughness is not a problem for me. (Brevity kind of is. Brain in RP mode, but. You should see my applications. I've never made one that didn't go over the suggested length on every single section. D:) And you are welcome -- and I'm very pleased to hear that. ♥
Aizen/Gin is an excellent reason for friending. There are so few of us. I, I may have fic. Some of which are NSFW, ahaha. Eee.
*may have been rendered slightly incoherent; one supposes this is the difference between talking about a pairing you like and talking about one you love*
I am actively restraining myself from further happy babble. Such as massively overanalyzing Gin's use of suffixes (or the lack thereof) in the current arc. (But Kaname and such carefulness on KT's part to keep Gin from ever using Aizen's name. And meanwhile the anime decides he's still using "Captain," unless he's talking to other arrancar or Tousen, and not -sama -- or -dono -- or. Eee. The tiny details make me such a grinning fool.) Because after all of this, you're probably tired of hearing me talk. XD
The bottom line: Yes. Yes, you may. I've already done so. Eee.
GOOD MORNING ICHIGO!
Ha no, didn't feel attacked at all. Enjoyed all your posts. Quickly now because my daughter is yelling at me for juice, but 1) Japanese incest fascination as in the romanticizing of it in manga and anime and literature, not the pornification of it--that's what I don't get 2) I don't get what you meant by Orihime's Visored status? Could you explain? 3) Fairy tales. A lot depends whether we're talking about European ones or Chinese/Japanese stories. The unrequited love theme is a biggie in the latter; the happy ever after figures more in the former--actually not as often as Disney would have us believe. 4) Ichigo's reactions. He's bolted several times in the story only to be held back and scolded by Ishida, Renji, Yoruichi, Urahara, Rukia. You'll have to go a long way to show me that his passionate outbursts in the HM arc were indicative of romantic (even submerged, unknown) romantic feelings) for Orihime. I'd buy that they were if Kubo hadn't undercut the whole Orihime and Ichigo interaction of the GJ fight (which was so touching--so really touching--but imv, it just got them up to cruising speed in terms of a relationship whereas Ichigo and Rukia have already done that road trip) with the la-la-la blase attitude of Ichigo hoisting Orihime on his back after. The comedy seemed decidedly unromantic--whereas the Rukia and Ichigo SS "goodbye" scene seemed dead serious.
Issues of subjective interpretation in some instances, but I think there's a case to be made for where Kubo is going with his story. How much does it matter to me? A lot. Not in terms of what I write. I write more IchiIshi, IshiHime, and gen than RenRuki, but I've got a burning, burning desire to see the whole love aspect of this Rukia/Ichigo/Renji/Ishida polygon of doom thing resolved once and for all. Time will tell.
*headdesk on being called a BNF* You know I only found out this year what that was (I like to think of myself as a fan that types a helluva lot) Thank you for being polite and thorough and yes, you DEFINITELY succeeded at convincing me that all IchiOris aren't fifteen and dewey-eyed. Thank you!
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2. This one is very cut-and-dry -- Hachigen (the large vizard who uses his own abilities to "heal" Tsubaki-kun) pretty much states it. Her abilities are the same as his. I think this is a parallel to Chad's abilities, which he has similarly stated are like a hollow -- or, in his case, a bit like an arrancar. I've been wondering why Ichigo's massive reiatsu would awaken powers like these in his friends, and am hoping KT will touch on it at some point~.
3. I'm actually very familiar with the original Grim's fairy tales, so I know what you mean about happy endings. But I was really just pointing this out because of the seeming contradiction~. What I should have said instead was this: I don't think that Ichigo returning Orihime's feelings would guarantee anyone a happy ending, or necessarily make the story too neat and tidy. Really, I agree with the previous statement -- KT has steered clear of several big clichés thus far, and I doubt he would go for one right now.
I guess the immediate problem is that Main Male + Main Female is just as much of a cliché, would be every bit as predictable, etc. Fortunately, I trust KT to steer clear of all the annoying conventions, whichever route he goes.
I'll be very surprised if Orihime's affections don't get returned, though -- as much as you are right that unrequited love is a big theme (heck, everywhere), it's usually not done this way. A main character might get this much of a spotlight on his feelings and then be rejected, but minor characters destined for unrequited love usually get more of a brief footnote. Orihime's crush has been there, in the background, since word one -- and, perhaps more tellingly, she has mistakenly assumed Ichigo and Rukia's relationship was romantic several times. (Because even if it someday becomes romantic, you can't tell me it's canonically romantic right now.) And that, too, seems like more the kind of development that leads to her eventually getting her feelings returned than -- for, what, the third or fourth time? -- deciding Ichigo likes Rukia more, or is otherwise uninterested in her.
As a narrative device, it just doesn't quite make sense.
Of course, we all know KT loves his minor characters, so I could be overthinking things here, but -- there you go; have a babble.
4. I think you're comparing his hoisting Orihime to the wrong moment -- what about when Ichigo scooped up Rukia and then tossed her at Renji? That's much more the right point in the rescue, and was every bit as comedic, undercutting a previously soft moment. I think KT just likes to keep his squishy moments brief.
One of the reasons why I think that Ichigo's reaction there was uncharacteristic is that it isn't very proportional. It's not like his attempts to jerk free from more intelligent people in order to save the lives of his sisters, or stop Rukia from going with Byakuya, or anything else. Because Ichigo himself says that he is attacking Ulquiorra, not for hurting Orihime, not for putting her life in jeopardy, but for marking her a traitor. A suicidal reaction, of that magnitude, because Orihime was inconvenienced. That's what gets me, and makes it stand out.
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Continuing:
Although, going back and rereading the manga, I have to say that I see a similar kind of wildness in his reactions to her being menaced by her brother, too. (And that cute little aside, where he mutters to himself that, essentially, thinking about Orihime is stressful because she makes him worry. D: So adorable. So very Ichigo.)
We are so much at a crossroads here that I want to know what scenes you mean for Ichigo and Rukia that would put them on par with those sequences. It's not that I don't think they've had fluffy moments -- it really isn't. It's just that I don't think their fluffy moments are any more fluffy than Ichigo's fluffy moments with Chad.
(Which is actually something I love about this manga -- that, for example, Orihime goes to rescue Rukia for Rukia, because Rukia is her friend. [I know the anime adds in some bullshit about how she went for Ichigo, but that's in the filler episodes, and when Orihime gets there in the manga, she says very specifically that she wanted to rescue Rukia for Rukia's sake, not for Ichigo's sake.] Rukia wants to rescue Orihime for Orihime. Chad and Ishida want to rescue Orihime for Orihime. People actually love each other, instead of all being focused only on the main character.)
But I'll say again -- I see Ichigo's scenes with Orihime as things that would only happen with Orihime -- new facets to his personality that haven't been brought out before, even though he's been in similar circumstances with different people. Meanwhile, I see Rukia's scenes as being very typical of all Ichigo's friendships.
(And, as I add somewhere down below, part of what prevented me from being able to quite take Ichigo/Rukia as romantic was the realization that a lot of Ichigo's relationship with her -- which seems to involve a lot of being hit and going HEY what was that for?! -- was very similar to his relationship with Renji. And then the series went ahead and had the two of them actually take turns hitting and berating him, and I only felt it more strongly. So I can see a threesome there -- probably with Renji and Rukia dragging a very confused Ichigo into bed -- more easily than a twosome. Go figure.)
I absolutely agree that time will tell. I'm pretty sure I'm right on this -- obviously! XD But I have to add that I've still got some wiggle room; KT could convince me that he wasn't going to go in an Ichigo/Orihime direction. And, like you, I believe that it all kind of hinges on the coming chapters. For what it's worth, as I've also said elsewhere now, I see Ichigo/Orihime as a very slow-building thing, so I expect it to take quite a while before it comes to fruition; Ichigo is pretty dense, and I get the feeling, at present, that someone else would have to tell him Orihime liked him before he seriously put thought into it either way.
(Note, this is not the same as asking whether he's her boyfriend, as Shinji did -- that's an easy yes-or-no question, and does not require thought, especially in the middle of a tirade. Ichigo's response there sounds more like pushing it aside to avoid being distracted from his complaint than a thought-out answer.)
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At present, as a demonstration of my level of relative open-mindedness on the issue, in the applications for my RPG, I would take points off characterization for an Orihime who wanted her not to be in love with Ichigo -- but not points off for an Ichigo who wanted him not to be in love with her. I think he is, and that we're seeing signs that the feelings are there, deep down -- but he certainly hasn't realized it yet, and so it is far from canon enough to count against an applicant. (Plus, when done well, Ichigo/Rukia is entertaining. Not quite my thing -- I really don't like the smacking-each-other form of courtship so very popular in anime XD -- but entertaining nonetheless.)
/babble
When your excited rants get linked at bleach_news, I think it's time to admit that you might be a BNF. ;) (Is that anything like "You might be a redneck"?)
Thoroughness is not a problem for me. (Brevity kind of is. Brain in RP mode, but. You should see my applications. I've never made one that didn't go over the suggested length on every single section. D:) And you are welcome -- and I'm very pleased to hear that. ♥
Reply
May I friend you? I don't have the IchiOri ship in common but we have the AizenGin one.
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Aizen/Gin is an excellent reason for friending. There are so few of us. I, I may have fic. Some of which are NSFW, ahaha. Eee.
*may have been rendered slightly incoherent; one supposes this is the difference between talking about a pairing you like and talking about one you love*
I am actively restraining myself from further happy babble. Such as massively overanalyzing Gin's use of suffixes (or the lack thereof) in the current arc. (But Kaname and such carefulness on KT's part to keep Gin from ever using Aizen's name. And meanwhile the anime decides he's still using "Captain," unless he's talking to other arrancar or Tousen, and not -sama -- or -dono -- or. Eee. The tiny details make me such a grinning fool.) Because after all of this, you're probably tired of hearing me talk. XD
The bottom line: Yes. Yes, you may. I've already done so. Eee.
Reply
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