Re: Long-Winded Comment is Long! 2/2liana_bluestarAugust 14 2009, 22:07:59 UTC
Here's where I have a problem with reviews as they are written text. As the one receiving a review, I have no idea as to the frame of mind of the author of the review. Is this person angry? Is this person indifferent? Is (s)he trying to help? Unless someone has actually told me they're really emotional as they're writing the review, I have no idea what the true tone of the words written. If it sounds like there's a tone, it's because I've put it there. It's also something I have to watch when I leave a review because I can really put a tone in what I'm saying.
From you: Have you tried waitng and not posting until a multi-chaptered story is done? Then "update soon" is not an issue.
From me: I disagree. As I said in my entry, a story that's listed as complete still gets a plea for more. One author (not you) has admitted to me she continued a story after she had completed it because the readers begged her for more. I still get requests for more on stories I have listed as complete. Not everyone pays attention to the summary of a story.
Now let me ask you this. Is constructive criticism not a form of feedback? Because I've always felt that it was. I am not going to disagree with you that I've been unreasonable in my expectations from my reviewers. I thought I said as much when I wrote this entry. Yes, I need to brush a lot of things off my shoulder. I know this, but it will take me some time. I mean, the whole "update soon" thing was going on towards the end of 2004. It's now halfway through 2009. In that respect, you've not really said anything that hasn't been said to me before, especially by my best bud, paganpoet. (She can really give me the riot act when I start throwing hissy fis. Whoa! But I loves her anyways.) It's nice to have the reminder.
However, I would like to say this. When I have done something (like leave a story with an open ending and no sequel in sight) with a piece, it has been intentional on my part. I've considered what I need to do in order to continue, and that's what I've done. Also, there are a lot of stories out there that have open endings, where you don't know what's happened next. And I'm not talking fanfiction. I'm talking on a professional level. The author is leaving the actual ending in the reader's hands, and I find that concept really, really cool.
I have a lot of issues to work on. I know this. I know what the root causes are, too, and, in some ways, the odds are not in my favour. (This isn't me being dramatic. This is me being realistic.) But I'm not asking people to constantly monitor me when I start to get a little crazy. It isn't anyone's job but my own.
Re: Long-Winded Comment is Long! 2/2lawless523August 14 2009, 22:46:28 UTC
I think you're conflating "update soon" and "write more". "Update soon" is (usually) for a story that clearly isn't finished, and your gripe about it was that it put too much pressure on you, the author, to live up to those often unrealistic expectations.
Whether a story is finished or not is a different matter. I have had people make remarks that made it clear that they didn't notice that the story was listed as complete with stories that had finished endings. I haven't written any open-ended stories, although I have one in draft with a deliberately ambiguous ending. The thing is, you could have hit the wrong button on a story listed on FFN as complete (not so likely on Gurabite, where you have to type it in yourself), so if a story is completely open-ended - you leave it hanging at a spot where you would usually expect a resolution - people might ask even if they've noticed that it says "complete." In those cases I think it's useful to note that the story is complete and the open-ended ending is in fact the way it's supposed to be.
While I'm not a big fan of open-ended endings, it's your prerogative as the writer to use one and I absolutely agree with you that if it's clear that's where you think the story should end, readers shouldn't barrage you whining for more. I think the problem is that a lot of readers just aren't up to handling open-ended endings and are probably surprised to find them used in fanfiction.
Of course constructive criticism is a form of feedback. I was just saying that expecting that level of feedback went beyond the implied writer/reader/reviewer contract and was expecting too much.
I did once write a sequel to a story I had no intention of writing but it wasn't a continuation. I'd written a love letter from Shuichi to Eiri prompted by a specific scene in EX (the one where Ryuichi asks Eiri what he'd have if he lost his looks and Eiri says "Nothing"). The fangirls on FFN loved it; it's my most reviewed and rec'd piece there, but reviewers asked me or expressed the desire to see Eiri's reaction (of course, they all called him Yuki, but whatever). I resisted and resisted. I always send responses to reviews, so I included my lack of interest and my thoughts on what he'd do in the responses.
After the fourth one, though, I decided it would be less trouble to actually write the sequel. Ironically, my beta liked the sequel better than the original, as she likes stories better than letters or other non-story devices. I wound up posting the sequel, with Tatsuha reading the letter to a still temporarily blind Eiri, at FFN and sent PMs to all the people who'd longed for it in their reviews, and posted it on Gurabite as a second chapter. People liked it and I've grown to appreciate it too, although I still like the original better. Plus now no one asks me for Eiri's response; it's already there.
Re: Long-Winded Comment is Long! 2/2liana_bluestarAugust 16 2009, 15:32:57 UTC
Given how long ago the whole "update soon" argument happened (it's been five years or around there), the fandom it happened with, and the website where it happened, I wasn't conflating "update soon" with "write more". I wasn't kidding when I said I would post a chapter (having written that section that given day and decide to get it out there -- this particular story was a writing challenge so it wasn't just for me but for the person issuing the challenge) and receive an update soon within an hour of the next chapter's arrival. That's when people were like, "Well, it just means they like your story, and they want to see more of it. They're not as articulate as you are." (-insert sarcasm- No . . . I thought they believe me to be their writing pony!) I mean, it really is one thing if an update soon is coming three months later or even a year later, (yes, I'm bad at updating. Too many ideas in my head, it seems) but an hour or even a week later? I feel like that fanfiction readers don't always take into account the author has a real life to deal with, not just the cyber-life. Maybe that's just me projecting such a thing into the mix. I'm not sure. A few authors at that time were like, "Whoa! You go, girl!" when it was going on. Of course, you hit anything up with a bad day, and well . . . I'm not always very good at keeping a bad day at bay with a positive attitude. Too emotional, I guess.
Anyway . . . about the open-endings . . . yeah, a lot of readers are not fond of them. It doesn't give them anything conclusive, and, this is just me speculating, they don't want to use their imaginations on some kind of viable outcome. The one story I did that with, I finally had to tell everyone in an author's note it ended where I wanted it and that I would have liked to see someone else write a story inspired by that. Took all the fun out of it, too.
I really don't have an unrealistic expectation when it comes to the reader/writer/reviewer contract. I expect them to be honest and to say more than just two little words should they decide to leave a review. (Okay, so maybe saying more than just two little words might be a little unrealistic for them, but I can't help it. I like to know what they're thinking beyond "update soon" or "This is soo kewl, it makes me drool." I wrote it for a specific impact. "Update soon" doesn't tell me if I've accomplished that or not.) Hell, I don't even ask them to review the story. I don't leave the notes in my story or summary asking for them to read and review. The fact that they do is a bonus for me. (I have asked friends to read something for me and to tell me what they think of it. I get the most honest feedback that way . . .)
I know about your sequel. We talked before about that. ;) I remember telling you that if you felt you should do one, you should. The whole point of this entry (aside from me confessing about my bad behaviour) is 1 - for writers to feel confident about the decisions they make when it comes to their works; 2 - if they ask for reviews, they should expect the reader to be honest about their feelings and not be so upset when someone gives them constructive critism; and 3 - they should hold themselves to the same writing standards as they would the local news journalist or their favourite authors, be it recreational writing or not. Also I would like for readers to understand that 1 - it isn't cool to secondguess the author or to tell the author what (s)he SHOULD do in terms of writing as opposed to requesting something, 2 - if something is poorly written and they can see it, they should say something and be honest in their responses (but to try and refrain from saying as little as possible, like update soon), 3 - if they don't like the way something is done, to try writing for themselves, and 4 - they are in NO way obligated to review a story, even if an author requests that they do so. I'm pretty sure I wasn't as clear as I could be when I wrote this entry so I apologize for that. However, if this makes me unrealistic . . . then I guess I'll just have to seem unrealistic to everyone. ^_^
Re: Long-Winded Comment is Long! 2/2lawless523August 16 2009, 19:32:17 UTC
I understood that "update soon" was posted in a review hours after you posted. My point was if the reader really liked it and was anxious for the next installment, that was what the reader wanted to tell you in the review. Are you saying they shouldn't, or have no right to, if they happen to read it shortly after you post? Or was it because you felt they were vultures swooping down to read it as soon as you posted and were being greedy in asking for more right away? I still think "update soon" should be flattering, not a source of pressure. Of course they're ignoring your real life because they don't know what it's like. You have no need to update soon just because they ask you to or if life gets in the way.
I guess I see your position as a little inconsistent, that you don't ask for reviews but yet if they're left you expect them to meet a certain standard. The sites you post at provide a forum for reviews whether you ask for them or not. It'd be helpful to your peace of mind if you didn't an internal standard by which you measured reviews or ignored the ones that don't meet it. You don't write for their praise and they don't review to meet your standards. When someone is expressing approval, the fact that you don't like it because it doesn't help you improve seems a little ungrateful when all they're saying is that they enjoyed your story. That's what I meant about the reader/reviewer/writer contract.
Re: Long-Winded Comment is Long! 2/2liana_bluestarAugust 16 2009, 20:52:16 UTC
Okay, I think I need to be done with this discussion because we're now talking in circles, and I'm not going to do that. I'm really not. I'm not here to change anyone's mind about whether a certain kind of review is bad or good or whatever. We each have our different responses to different kinds of reviews, and that's where I'm going to leave this conversation at.
Re: Long-Winded Comment is Long! 2/2lawless523August 16 2009, 21:06:25 UTC
I think we're done too. And obviously we have to agree to disagree on some of this.
That said, I trust this doesn't put you off on my commenting. We disagree but i hope this hasn't come across as disagreeable. And I despite our disagreements, I thought your original post was articulate and thoughtful in the sense that you put a lot of thought into it.
Good luck with your writing and getting published!
From you: Have you tried waitng and not posting until a multi-chaptered story is done? Then "update soon" is not an issue.
From me: I disagree. As I said in my entry, a story that's listed as complete still gets a plea for more. One author (not you) has admitted to me she continued a story after she had completed it because the readers begged her for more. I still get requests for more on stories I have listed as complete. Not everyone pays attention to the summary of a story.
Now let me ask you this. Is constructive criticism not a form of feedback? Because I've always felt that it was. I am not going to disagree with you that I've been unreasonable in my expectations from my reviewers. I thought I said as much when I wrote this entry. Yes, I need to brush a lot of things off my shoulder. I know this, but it will take me some time. I mean, the whole "update soon" thing was going on towards the end of 2004. It's now halfway through 2009. In that respect, you've not really said anything that hasn't been said to me before, especially by my best bud, paganpoet. (She can really give me the riot act when I start throwing hissy fis. Whoa! But I loves her anyways.) It's nice to have the reminder.
However, I would like to say this. When I have done something (like leave a story with an open ending and no sequel in sight) with a piece, it has been intentional on my part. I've considered what I need to do in order to continue, and that's what I've done. Also, there are a lot of stories out there that have open endings, where you don't know what's happened next. And I'm not talking fanfiction. I'm talking on a professional level. The author is leaving the actual ending in the reader's hands, and I find that concept really, really cool.
I have a lot of issues to work on. I know this. I know what the root causes are, too, and, in some ways, the odds are not in my favour. (This isn't me being dramatic. This is me being realistic.) But I'm not asking people to constantly monitor me when I start to get a little crazy. It isn't anyone's job but my own.
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Whether a story is finished or not is a different matter. I have had people make remarks that made it clear that they didn't notice that the story was listed as complete with stories that had finished endings. I haven't written any open-ended stories, although I have one in draft with a deliberately ambiguous ending. The thing is, you could have hit the wrong button on a story listed on FFN as complete (not so likely on Gurabite, where you have to type it in yourself), so if a story is completely open-ended - you leave it hanging at a spot where you would usually expect a resolution - people might ask even if they've noticed that it says "complete." In those cases I think it's useful to note that the story is complete and the open-ended ending is in fact the way it's supposed to be.
While I'm not a big fan of open-ended endings, it's your prerogative as the writer to use one and I absolutely agree with you that if it's clear that's where you think the story should end, readers shouldn't barrage you whining for more. I think the problem is that a lot of readers just aren't up to handling open-ended endings and are probably surprised to find them used in fanfiction.
Of course constructive criticism is a form of feedback. I was just saying that expecting that level of feedback went beyond the implied writer/reader/reviewer contract and was expecting too much.
I did once write a sequel to a story I had no intention of writing but it wasn't a continuation. I'd written a love letter from Shuichi to Eiri prompted by a specific scene in EX (the one where Ryuichi asks Eiri what he'd have if he lost his looks and Eiri says "Nothing"). The fangirls on FFN loved it; it's my most reviewed and rec'd piece there, but reviewers asked me or expressed the desire to see Eiri's reaction (of course, they all called him Yuki, but whatever). I resisted and resisted. I always send responses to reviews, so I included my lack of interest and my thoughts on what he'd do in the responses.
After the fourth one, though, I decided it would be less trouble to actually write the sequel. Ironically, my beta liked the sequel better than the original, as she likes stories better than letters or other non-story devices. I wound up posting the sequel, with Tatsuha reading the letter to a still temporarily blind Eiri, at FFN and sent PMs to all the people who'd longed for it in their reviews, and posted it on Gurabite as a second chapter. People liked it and I've grown to appreciate it too, although I still like the original better. Plus now no one asks me for Eiri's response; it's already there.
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Anyway . . . about the open-endings . . . yeah, a lot of readers are not fond of them. It doesn't give them anything conclusive, and, this is just me speculating, they don't want to use their imaginations on some kind of viable outcome. The one story I did that with, I finally had to tell everyone in an author's note it ended where I wanted it and that I would have liked to see someone else write a story inspired by that. Took all the fun out of it, too.
I really don't have an unrealistic expectation when it comes to the reader/writer/reviewer contract. I expect them to be honest and to say more than just two little words should they decide to leave a review. (Okay, so maybe saying more than just two little words might be a little unrealistic for them, but I can't help it. I like to know what they're thinking beyond "update soon" or "This is soo kewl, it makes me drool." I wrote it for a specific impact. "Update soon" doesn't tell me if I've accomplished that or not.) Hell, I don't even ask them to review the story. I don't leave the notes in my story or summary asking for them to read and review. The fact that they do is a bonus for me. (I have asked friends to read something for me and to tell me what they think of it. I get the most honest feedback that way . . .)
I know about your sequel. We talked before about that. ;) I remember telling you that if you felt you should do one, you should. The whole point of this entry (aside from me confessing about my bad behaviour) is 1 - for writers to feel confident about the decisions they make when it comes to their works; 2 - if they ask for reviews, they should expect the reader to be honest about their feelings and not be so upset when someone gives them constructive critism; and 3 - they should hold themselves to the same writing standards as they would the local news journalist or their favourite authors, be it recreational writing or not. Also I would like for readers to understand that 1 - it isn't cool to secondguess the author or to tell the author what (s)he SHOULD do in terms of writing as opposed to requesting something, 2 - if something is poorly written and they can see it, they should say something and be honest in their responses (but to try and refrain from saying as little as possible, like update soon), 3 - if they don't like the way something is done, to try writing for themselves, and 4 - they are in NO way obligated to review a story, even if an author requests that they do so. I'm pretty sure I wasn't as clear as I could be when I wrote this entry so I apologize for that. However, if this makes me unrealistic . . . then I guess I'll just have to seem unrealistic to everyone. ^_^
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I guess I see your position as a little inconsistent, that you don't ask for reviews but yet if they're left you expect them to meet a certain standard. The sites you post at provide a forum for reviews whether you ask for them or not. It'd be helpful to your peace of mind if you didn't an internal standard by which you measured reviews or ignored the ones that don't meet it. You don't write for their praise and they don't review to meet your standards. When someone is expressing approval, the fact that you don't like it because it doesn't help you improve seems a little ungrateful when all they're saying is that they enjoyed your story. That's what I meant about the reader/reviewer/writer contract.
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Enough said.
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That said, I trust this doesn't put you off on my commenting. We disagree but i hope this hasn't come across as disagreeable. And I despite our disagreements, I thought your original post was articulate and thoughtful in the sense that you put a lot of thought into it.
Good luck with your writing and getting published!
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