First of all, I think that you ARE subtly including accent. I have a friend who is from Kentucky. She has a very strong southern accent. And she and I have discussed how on numerous occassions she experiences racism because of her accent. Whatever she says is mocked back to her, even if it is a very intelligent comment. And she has a PhD. But it is still done to her. We have also discussed how Appalacia is the last group that is safe for everyone to be racist against (but that's another point entirely). The point is, she DOES get racist-motivated comments made against her for her accent.
I will assume -- perhaps unfairly -- that you are uneducatedThis is an unfair assumption, because you are assuming that anything outside of your understanding of "education" is un-educated. You have a mainstream, white-man understanding of education. What you are suggesting is that an other culture subsume themselves ("Uncle Tom" themselves) to your idea of culture. That's not fair. You are putting
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"This is an unfair assumption, because you are assuming that anything outside of your understanding of "education" is un-educated. You have a mainstream, white-man understanding of education. What you are suggesting is that an other culture subsume themselves ("Uncle Tom" themselves) to your idea of culture. That's not fair. You are putting forth a Booker T. Washington idea of culture and totally discounting WEB DuBois' ideas of creating your own culture. Look into it. I'm not saying that I side completely with DuBois, but I certainly get where he's coming from."
First of all, I think that you ARE subtly including accent. I have a friend who is from Kentucky. She has a very strong southern accent. And she and I have discussed how on numerous occassions she experiences racism because of her accent. Whatever she says is mocked back to her, even if it is a very intelligent comment. And she has a PhD. But it is still done to her. We have also discussed how Appalacia is the last group that is safe for everyone to be racist against (but that's another point entirely). The point is, she DOES get racist-motivated comments made against her for her accent. This does not make sense: You claim that I DO include accent, and you then site an example of someone else. ???
We have a guy in my lab from W. VA whose accent coming in was very "slow"-sounding. I never once considered him less intelligent or teased him, even though he spoke slowly. Not everyone does that. (Some in our lab teased him, yes, although no one ever considered him unintelligent.)
I understood you as saying that accent should not be included in this diatribe; I was arguing that you ARE including accent when you talk about these things (or at least the idea that others sound less intelligent with an accent), and that that is a type of racist assumption.
Maybe I was unclear or I didn't understand what you were saying in the first place.
What I am saying is that if someone speaks to me in very improper English -- and Spanglish and Ebonics are improper English as is much of how teenagers of any race talk today -- I will assume that they aren't educated well. I, as a preference, would prefer to talk to educated people. Now if someone speaks to me with a Spanish accent -- but not in Spanglish -- I don't even remotely judge their education level. And if they cannot speak proper English at all, but try, I still do not judge their education level, because it is clear that they know well another language and have not fully learned mine.
So I am not including accent in the same category as racially linked corruptions of English such as Ebonics and Spanglish. The existence of those mixes implies either a lack of care about learning those languages or a failure at schools in teaching proper English.
I will assume -- perhaps unfairly -- that you are uneducated This is an unfair assumption, because you are assuming that anything outside of your understanding of "education" is un-educated. Um, I just said that.What you are suggesting is that an other culture subsume themselves ("Uncle Tom" themselves) to your idea of culture. That's not fair. You are putting forth a Booker T. Washington idea of culture and totally discounting WEB DuBois' ideas of creating your own culture. Look into it. I'm not saying that I side completely with DuBois, but I certainly get where he's coming from. I am not familiar with any of these ideas. To say that Ebonics or Spanglish is less valid than standard English is to compel someone to learn outside of their culture (like asking someone who has spoken French their whole life to suddenly learn everything in German) Yes, of course it is to compel someone to learn another language. But those people chose to come to a country that speaks English, not the other way around. "When in Rome do as the Romans do." If
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If, however, as you suggest, it is because they are trying to maintain a subculture for themselves, I would suggest that that is disunifying and hurts any attempts at equality in this country.
Okay, but isn't the "born-again Christian" (please forgive me the doctrinal asides of the term; it's the quickest way to get on the same page) considered to be a subculture? The homeschooling community? They are choosing to go against the mainstream culture and teach their children differently. Yes, those children can certainly "get by" in mainstream America in some senses, but in many others, they are very sheltered and unprepared (I would point to your experiences as a possible case in point). Now, Ebonics hinders in a different way, but as a choice for their lifestyle, why is it any less valid?
And I will point out, as I answered dogs_n_rodents, I am mostly advocating the higher accessability to bilingual communities rather than "Spanish only" communities (although I do see problems with that as well). As it is, we require assimilation and make no
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The homeschooling community? They are choosing to go against the mainstream culture and teach their children differently. Yes, those children can certainly "get by" in mainstream America in some senses, but in many others, they are very sheltered and unprepared (I would point to your experiences as a possible case in point). They do more than "get by"; usually they excel. (I honestly have no idea what experiences of mine you are referring to that homeschooling supposedly left me unprepared for.)
But I'll cover subculture pros and cons in a later entry rather than here.
They do more than "get by"; usually they excel. I put it in quotes because I was referencing what you said earlier about other cultures getting "by." And by experiences, I was thinking mostly social in the sense of not really being critical/suspicious of the ulterior motives of the nonChristian. Which isn't in itself a bad thing, but sometimes could get one in trouble. Wasn't meant as an insult (more a questiony thing, as I dont know how you interpret your life in terms of your homschooling, and frankly I don't think I'm in a place to draw ANY conclusions. Just throwing it out there).
Well, I don't think homeschooling relates to that situation at all. I can trace some of that to a single night out walking in Bangor, but that is a whole other discussion not fit for here.
Homeschooling left me not quite sure how to approach women at first. Even so, I asked a girl out in the first week. (She said no, having already been asked out -- not to imply she would have said yes otherwise.) And of course, by the end, I had my harem of women. :) And I struggled to not figet in classrooms having never had to sit through them before. But nothing major.
"Maybe what you should be asking is how do we mesh together these different, but equally valid, cultures into a whole that has some sort of equal understanding (meeting point, whatever)."
I'm curious: do you believe that all cultures are equally valid by definition, or simply that the cultures being discussed happen to be equally valid?
That's a really good question. I'm not really sure how to answer it. There are certainly cultures that I disagree with morally (homosexuals for one, satanists for another). But to say that they should be assimilated and not allowed to hold to their beliefs (be it linguistic, ethic, moral, or cultural), I have a tendency to say that, yes, that is wrong. Every culture is valid in the sense that they have a set of beliefs and traditions that are uniquely theirs and should not have to be co-opted for a larger, mainstream culture. However, when their beliefs clash with another culture, then, yes that must be dealt with and a conclusion come to. For example, the KKK culture believes that it is fine to lynch black men; this clashes with a (god-given tenet to be sure, but for the sake of this argument), tenet of the constitution that allows for a fair trial. Thus, a KKK member should be held responsible for their actions as they were acting within the larger American culture
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"And she and I have discussed how on numerous occassions she experiences racism because of her accent. Whatever she says is mocked back to her, even if it is a very intelligent comment."
Sorry, hon, but you have to pick one. Either they're mocking her for her race, or they're mocking her for her accent. Thinking someone sounds ridiculous doesn't necessarily imply that you hate a particular race of people.
No it doesn't, but it does imply that you are looking down your nose at them (often as less intelligent), so if you want to take issue with the word "racism" here (which I will stand by), I would accept the word "classism" or "elitism" to replace it.
There is a major difference between classism and elitism and racism in that no one chooses their race. However, people in this country do have a right to pursue any class. Granted, it is not easy for some to change; I am not saying that classism and elitism are proper attitudes. Both are also wrong
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Why wouldn't you tend to avoid people who voluntarily announce themselves as big sports fans. This is the essence of racism, but I certainly see your point.
Why should you not be allowed to hire those that speak the prevalent accent of the region in which you base your business? A) the quota system (which I am against). B) it's cheaper. C) It depends on the accent. If we are talking a Southern accent vs. an Asian accent, that might be two different calls. But does that then amount to discrimination? I'm not sure.
First of all, I think that you ARE subtly including accent. I have a friend who is from Kentucky. She has a very strong southern accent. And she and I have discussed how on numerous occassions she experiences racism because of her accent. Whatever she says is mocked back to her, even if it is a very intelligent comment. And she has a PhD. But it is still done to her. We have also discussed how Appalacia is the last group that is safe for everyone to be racist against (but that's another point entirely). The point is, she DOES get racist-motivated comments made against her for her accent.
I will assume -- perhaps unfairly -- that you are uneducatedThis is an unfair assumption, because you are assuming that anything outside of your understanding of "education" is un-educated. You have a mainstream, white-man understanding of education. What you are suggesting is that an other culture subsume themselves ("Uncle Tom" themselves) to your idea of culture. That's not fair. You are putting ( ... )
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Agreed with this.
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This does not make sense: You claim that I DO include accent, and you then site an example of someone else. ???
We have a guy in my lab from W. VA whose accent coming in was very "slow"-sounding. I never once considered him less intelligent or teased him, even though he spoke slowly. Not everyone does that. (Some in our lab teased him, yes, although no one ever considered him unintelligent.)
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Maybe I was unclear or I didn't understand what you were saying in the first place.
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So I am not including accent in the same category as racially linked corruptions of English such as Ebonics and Spanglish. The existence of those mixes implies either a lack of care about learning those languages or a failure at schools in teaching proper English.
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This is an unfair assumption, because you are assuming that anything outside of your understanding of "education" is un-educated.
Um, I just said that.What you are suggesting is that an other culture subsume themselves ("Uncle Tom" themselves) to your idea of culture. That's not fair. You are putting forth a Booker T. Washington idea of culture and totally discounting WEB DuBois' ideas of creating your own culture. Look into it. I'm not saying that I side completely with DuBois, but I certainly get where he's coming from.
I am not familiar with any of these ideas.
To say that Ebonics or Spanglish is less valid than standard English is to compel someone to learn outside of their culture (like asking someone who has spoken French their whole life to suddenly learn everything in German)
Yes, of course it is to compel someone to learn another language. But those people chose to come to a country that speaks English, not the other way around. "When in Rome do as the Romans do." If ( ... )
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Okay, but isn't the "born-again Christian" (please forgive me the doctrinal asides of the term; it's the quickest way to get on the same page) considered to be a subculture? The homeschooling community? They are choosing to go against the mainstream culture and teach their children differently. Yes, those children can certainly "get by" in mainstream America in some senses, but in many others, they are very sheltered and unprepared (I would point to your experiences as a possible case in point). Now, Ebonics hinders in a different way, but as a choice for their lifestyle, why is it any less valid?
And I will point out, as I answered dogs_n_rodents, I am mostly advocating the higher accessability to bilingual communities rather than "Spanish only" communities (although I do see problems with that as well). As it is, we require assimilation and make no ( ... )
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They do more than "get by"; usually they excel. (I honestly have no idea what experiences of mine you are referring to that homeschooling supposedly left me unprepared for.)
But I'll cover subculture pros and cons in a later entry rather than here.
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I put it in quotes because I was referencing what you said earlier about other cultures getting "by." And by experiences, I was thinking mostly social in the sense of not really being critical/suspicious of the ulterior motives of the nonChristian. Which isn't in itself a bad thing, but sometimes could get one in trouble. Wasn't meant as an insult (more a questiony thing, as I dont know how you interpret your life in terms of your homschooling, and frankly I don't think I'm in a place to draw ANY conclusions. Just throwing it out there).
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Homeschooling left me not quite sure how to approach women at first. Even so, I asked a girl out in the first week. (She said no, having already been asked out -- not to imply she would have said yes otherwise.) And of course, by the end, I had my harem of women. :) And I struggled to not figet in classrooms having never had to sit through them before. But nothing major.
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I'm curious: do you believe that all cultures are equally valid by definition, or simply that the cultures being discussed happen to be equally valid?
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Sorry, hon, but you have to pick one. Either they're mocking her for her race, or they're mocking her for her accent. Thinking someone sounds ridiculous doesn't necessarily imply that you hate a particular race of people.
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This is the essence of racism, but I certainly see your point.
Why should you not be allowed to hire those that speak the prevalent accent of the region in which you base your business?
A) the quota system (which I am against).
B) it's cheaper.
C) It depends on the accent. If we are talking a Southern accent vs. an Asian accent, that might be two different calls. But does that then amount to discrimination? I'm not sure.
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