(Untitled)

[lhiana]

Borderlands again

My brain is a puddle of information as memory drags me back down a windy dirt path alongside a steel fence.  I stood there a few months ago wondering about “us” and “them,” about “here” and “there.”  I questioned hat it was that I was protesting, at good my presence was, how on Earth a group of people reading poems or

Comments

[lhiana]

I have heard this same line many different ways: "I think most of the jobs they fill are jobs no one else wants." and it's the one I have the hardest time rationalizing in my head. Are United Statesians really so haughty that they can't be bothered to work on farms, wash dishes, or do these other jobs that are seen as jobs for "migrants"? When did being born here become synonymous with "better than everyone else"?

i've heard a number of people say that we "need" the immigrants to work on farms and such, otherwise cost would skyrocket. Then I get upset and want to know why they think it's okay to exploit people that way, simply because "we need them." That doesn't make it right. Then another side of me says, "Liz, honey, they chose to come over and work here." And I say, "I KNOW, but staying was worse!" and back and forth and back and forth... how much is our country responsible for the poor economic state of Mexico? I don't know. I'm not sure I WANT to know. Scratch that. I want to know regardless of how terrible it is.

Why is it so hard to know the truth???
This sitution is mind boggling.

[fourstrongwinds]

Well, I've worked on several farms and washed dishes at a couple places when I was younger. I don't particularly want those jobs as careers, do you? These jobs require minimal skills, language facility not being one of them. Hence they're filled by the folks with the lowest skill set, and if these folks are unable to learn new skills, they're stuck there. If immigrants were unavailable to fill them, then wages would rise a bit and more americans would fill them. Americans can also claim unemployment/disability/whatever other options exist, most immigrants can't.

I don't think it's just a desire to be better than everyone else, or not just that; if folks can get a job that doesn't involve picking tomatoes for 15 cents a pound, for ten hours a day, they're going to take it. If an immigrant could get a job as the CEO of Ford Motor Corporation, he'd take it, but he can't. The jobs they fill here are the best they can obtain, for more money than they could make in mexico.

Regardless of the country, the least desirable jobs are always filled by the people with the fewest resources. In western europe it's eastern europeans and turks. In mexico it's probably indians. . . also natives in all the places that can't master the skills for anything better, or don't have the connections to get a job regardless of skill.

By the way, this is all idle speculation on my part and might be 100% wrong.

[lhiana]

Well, I've worked on several farms and washed dishes at a couple places when I was younger. I don't particularly want those jobs as careers, do you?

And yet, currently the national unemployment rate is at 5%, and those who are violently opposed to immigrants being here use them as part of their argument-- that illegals "steal jobs" from citizens (grudgingly admitting that these jobs generally go to "minorities" and high school students. They also accuse the immigrants of being responsible for overall lower wages.

By placing emphasis on "status," (and capitalism) our country encourages people to take jobs selling designer clothing made in third world country, rather than a job (such as farming) that actually has a practical function.

Like I said before, there's so much going on here that I'm not sure there IS a viable solution. But there's got to be a better way of doing things than what's happening now.

[fourstrongwinds]

This "job stealing" rhetoric has been going on since this country began having massive immigration. And new immigrants are willing to work for less, generally, which does have the effect of decreasing wages. There's nothing new going on here. Here's an across an article that goes into greater detail:

http://www.amatecon.com/etext/cftoi/cftoi-ch14.html

You may have already heard both sides of these arguments if you've been researching the topic for a while. . .

Not so much a country encouraging this behavior, but a culture which is becoming increasingly pervasive. Sure, this country was founded in part to make the wealthy wealthier, but the culture predated the country. I think this country features a purer form of capitalism than others, but is otherwise not that different. I assume you're familiar with Daniel Quinn's arguments of how the current mainstream culture is destroying others. I don't think culture or this country is likely to change without a major civil war, plague, or other cataclysmic event. The folks that run things want to keep running things. With republicans manipulating election outcomes, the democratic process has become less effective than usual.

People have been proposing alternative ways of living since More wrote Utopia. Few of them have been tried, though there are societies that manage to accomplish this. I'm thinking of the Amish. I think voting with your dollar is one way for an individual to affect change in this country, just trying to live simply. Of course, my version of simple is another man's opulence. (I'm currently in the process of moving and am dumbfounded by all the crap I've managed to acquire here).

I agree that there are no easy answers, just fundamental problems at the base of our society. I think that the issue of immigration in this country and its perception is a natural outgrowth of the culture coupled with political/nation state boundaries, and a very minor manifestation of much bigger problems.

So maybe we start dealing with the little problems, one at a time, trying to gradually force a shift. I liken this to trying to stop a massive moving object by yourself. Nearly impossible, but maybe you can redirect it or slow it down. Or if enough people become interested in stopping the boulder that's about to crush a (insert cutesy/delicate object here, nothing is coming to mind) it might be possible. But is think this is unlikely to happen.

I consider myself to be a realist, but the reality I see is so damn depressing. I'm now left thinking about a James Thurber story called "The Last Flower".

http://pages.zdnet.com/storysocks/library/id58.html

Cheers for the discussion, these sorts of issues are usually far in the background for me.

[lhiana]

I've been making it a point to start learning more about cultures and issues that are important to me. There's so much behind everything we do, from drinking a cup of coffee to where we purchase our clothes or groceries... I'm trying to stay informed, keep educating myself. I love latin culture too too much to let this go by unspoken. We are capable of such great things and yet most of us do so little, normally because we feel so confused, so helpless. I've decided it's not enough for me to feel rage on the inside -- I need to start learning the facts and doing what I can, even if that means writing about it that others might read and discuss to.

How is Arcosanti treating you? You're back there now, yes?

[fourstrongwinds]

I'm planning to get there by lunchtime Wednesday. I've no idea where I'm going to be living at Arco, or if I'll have room for the accumulated shite that I've got, but that's my plan. I'll either be up and down moving things in over the weekend or trying to find a storage unit in Flagstaff.

Latin culture is an area I'm not very knowledgeable about. I don't think I feel rage so much as resignation, but there's some of both rolling around inside me these days.

News stories such as this are somewhat heartening, however: http://www.drudgereportarchives.com/data/2005/11/22/20051122_023400_flash3cnc.htm