At least he has a very good reason to leave: he just wants to pursue an intellectual vocation...That's a lot better than those guys who just leave because they found a girl...
How is one calling away from the church more valid than another? If a man feels that his place in life is elsewhere, no matter what that place is, wouldn't it be worse if he became a priest when the passion is not there? It probably takes a lot of thinking before these guys decide to leave seminary. Not everyone is willing to make the committment to be a priest, just like not everyone is willing to commit to being married, or having children. Its more responsible to realize you lack that committment then to potentially hurt others in the long-run by trying to fake it. I guess I'm just saying that its worth it to respect Mike for making his choice, because we all know that he didn't make it lightly, and also to respect the others who have come and gone for their choice.
I kind of agree with Helene on your point about God causing pain. I remember once you and Mike and I were discussing religion, and I brought up the problem of suffering and how it made it hard for me to believe there was a benevolent God. I also asked how the concept of God as an immaterial spirit was compatible with the laws of physics that we know today. Mike explained to me that the world works in a physical manner because God created it to work according to physical laws. Thus, we are all subject to the physical world's good and bad, and the universe is the arena in which we live our lives. Pain and joy are both parts of this world, and they happen for various reasons. It is impossible to ascribe the result to a divine cause or a wordly cause.
In the Brother Cadfael books, one of the characters, Brother Jerome, thought that a murder had happened because he had remarked that the slain individual should be "struck down" for his impudence against the church. He was very upset, and felt that God had caused the death as a result of his burst of anger. Brother Cadfael explained that Jerome was "taking too much upon himself", and made him reflect on his place in the world and his relationship with God before making such a bold claim. It kind of applies to this situation too. You have a relationship with God, but I don't think He would seek to test people like you claim. I think the tests happen in and of themselves, and God is there to watch how you respond.
This comic Testament that I read did a retelling of the Book of Job. It was entitled "Shit Happens." So about God causing pain. . .it's searching for a name or a place or an organization to which one can ascribe blame. It's somewhat similar to people blaming violent movies and video games for school shootings, when bad parenting, availability of guns, lax security, and poor treatment by peers were more likely responsible. So when, as the song says, your wife leaves you, your car gets wrecked, and your dog gets run over, it's much easier "Godamn you, God!" than it is to say "Hey, I'm an asshole and my life's a mess!" My two cents. Do you have change?
Actually, I do not think so. I think that most people who think that God causes evil things to happen (I am not one of them!) think so becuase they think He is attempting to bring about a greater good from that evil (usually in the form of spiritual growth). I do not think they blame Him for all the random bad things that happen in their lives or the world. I suppose some people also believe pain is a punishment, whether on individuals or on societies. I could not disagree more with that thought! In any case, for believers, non-believers, and agnostics, the questions that evil and suffering poses are deeply felt, and perhaps, out of respect for them, it would be better to treat the question with a bit more seriousness and gravity. None of us can escape the fact that all of us will die. Do we really think about this? We should. I do not say this to cause fear, or to be morbid (anyone who raises the issue of death is ofen accused of those things) but to discuss one of the paramount issues of human life. I do not think that we are living authentically if we ignore the real fact of death. If we really took it into acount, whatever our belief, I think we could live better lives. Also, I think thinking about death can help us more clearly define our beliefs. I sometimes think that people in our society can be rather shallow, and care deeply about very, very silly and unimportant things. Thinking about death can help us, again, no matter what we believe about the afterlife, to focus ourselves more, and to live better and more authentic lives now, according to our most deeply held principles. And also, it can help us, if we were putting off thinking about serious questions (I am not saying any of you are doing that, I think many of you, no matter what your beliefs, do consider these questions) to start thinking about these questions, since we are not going to live forever, perhaps despite popular belief...
Concerning pain, I feel like I'm agreeing with everyone. ^^;; In a lot of things, pain and suffering just happens because of natural causes in the physical world---disease, disasters, etc. But pain is definitely one of the major methods God uses to shape a person for the better-- people don't become stronger by living in a cushion. They become stronger by running into an obstacle, be it the obnoxious neighbor next door to the war taking place on your doorstep, and overcoming it.
Whether some event is specifically a test or a naturally occurring, craptastic coincidence, I don't think we can ever really know without some divine revelation. But I think that the higher one climbs in closeness to God, the more certain that He will send/allow some sort of Job-like test to hit you full-force. The whole point of the ordeal is to force you to the edge of your faith's limits, so that at the point you are about to give up, you stop trying to do anything and just let God take care of it all. If you succeed in that, you are that much closer to God, and subsequently, having peace on this earth.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, since the whole point of being Christian is to be like Jesus, then we eventually will have to go through everything that Jesus went through. And Jesus was definitely tested many times. In present day, I don't know if you want to consider every aspect of your life, every little setback as a "test". I suppose you could, but to me that sounds very exhausting and counter-productive.
On God and SufferinggazingattheseaOctober 24 2006, 03:01:28 UTC
"In the Brother Cadfael books, one of the characters, Brother Jerome, thought that a murder had happened because he had remarked that the slain individual should be "struck down" for his impudence against the church. He was very upset, and felt that God had caused the death as a result of his burst of anger. Brother Cadfael explained that Jerome was "taking too much upon himself", and made him reflect on his place in the world and his relationship with God before making such a bold claim. It kind of applies to this situation too. You have a relationship with God, but I don't think He would seek to test people like you claim. I think the tests happen in and of themselves, and God is there to watch how you respond."
I agree wholeheartedly with this point: God would never cause actively will anyone to suffer pain. He merely allows the consequences of human action to be played out, which can be quite horrible. But He respects our freedom, so He will not interfere until the end of time when Jesus Christ comes again and definitively takes away all the evil and pain and suffering of human history. I would also like to add that I think God does more than watch: Jesus Christ allowed himself to undergo suffering, to show his solidarity and love for the poor and suffering of this world. Even now he is mysteriously present to those who suffer, and for many this is a source of great comfort. And he is constantly reaching out to all men and women, in the depths of their consciences, to stop comitting actions that lead to the suffering of others. And He will not allow the suffering that some horrible people cause to go unchecked. While it is possible that no one will go to hell, it is a possability that those who spend their lives causing pain to others should consider very seriously.
In any case, for a more extensive explenation of the Catholic view of suffering and evil, please see my live journal: gazingatthesea.livejournal.ocm
How is one calling away from the church more valid than another? It's not really a matter of one being more valid than another, it's more of a matter of avoiding pitfalls to ones own vocation. You see, it is possible to have a vocation to the priesthood and not follow through with it because of temptation. Celibacy itself is a very hard thing for most of the people here and it's very easy to leave the seminary for what one perceives as being more pleasurable. So, to avoid this, we first have to discern whether or not we're called to be celibate and then think about dating or whatnot, if not. To discern celibacy while dating pretty much assures that celibacy is not really being discerned at all.
Likewise, if someone is called to be married, but is avoiding it by being in the seminary, by all means, that person should leave. But, that person still needs to go through much prayer and spiritual direction before he can know that.
As for your comments on pain, please see the reply I just gave Helene.
It is impossible to ascribe the result to a divine cause or a wordly cause. I would disagree with this statement on the grounds that all things are ultimately caused by cause. To say that anything is uncaused is to say that it is God.
You have a relationship with God, but I don't think He would seek to test people like you claim. Nothing happens outside the will of God. So, should someone be tested, it would be because He allows it. We can easily see this in the book of Job where God allows Satan to take away all of Job's family, possessions and health. We also see this when Jesus was tempted in the wilderness in Matthew's and Luke's Gospel. I believe that God allows (wills) these tests to occur so that we can grow in our knowledge and love of Him. So, they're not capricious. Further, he already knows how one would respond to a test before it even happens because he knows all time at once. So, they could not be for His sake, but ours.
Anyways, I hope that helps and I'm glad to see that you remembered so much from our previous conversations. It's a good sign that you're asking good questions.
who just leave because they found a girl...
How is one calling away from the church more valid than another? If a man feels that his place in life is elsewhere, no matter what that place is, wouldn't it be worse if he became a priest when the passion is not there? It probably takes a lot of thinking before these guys decide to leave seminary. Not everyone is willing to make the committment to be a priest, just like not everyone is willing to commit to being married, or having children. Its more responsible to realize you lack that committment then to potentially hurt others in the long-run by trying to fake it. I guess I'm just saying that its worth it to respect Mike for making his choice, because we all know that he didn't make it lightly, and also to respect the others who have come and gone for their choice.
I kind of agree with Helene on your point about God causing pain. I remember once you and Mike and I were discussing religion, and I brought up the problem of suffering and how it made it hard for me to believe there was a benevolent God. I also asked how the concept of God as an immaterial spirit was compatible with the laws of physics that we know today. Mike explained to me that the world works in a physical manner because God created it to work according to physical laws. Thus, we are all subject to the physical world's good and bad, and the universe is the arena in which we live our lives. Pain and joy are both parts of this world, and they happen for various reasons. It is impossible to ascribe the result to a divine cause or a wordly cause.
In the Brother Cadfael books, one of the characters, Brother Jerome, thought that a murder had happened because he had remarked that the slain individual should be "struck down" for his impudence against the church. He was very upset, and felt that God had caused the death as a result of his burst of anger. Brother Cadfael explained that Jerome was "taking too much upon himself", and made him reflect on his place in the world and his relationship with God before making such a bold claim. It kind of applies to this situation too. You have a relationship with God, but I don't think He would seek to test people like you claim. I think the tests happen in and of themselves, and God is there to watch how you respond.
Reply
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In any case, for believers, non-believers, and agnostics, the questions that evil and suffering poses are deeply felt, and perhaps, out of respect for them, it would be better to treat the question with a bit more seriousness and gravity. None of us can escape the fact that all of us will die. Do we really think about this? We should. I do not say this to cause fear, or to be morbid (anyone who raises the issue of death is ofen accused of those things) but to discuss one of the paramount issues of human life. I do not think that we are living authentically if we ignore the real fact of death. If we really took it into acount, whatever our belief, I think we could live better lives. Also, I think thinking about death can help us more clearly define our beliefs. I sometimes think that people in our society can be rather shallow, and care deeply about very, very silly and unimportant things. Thinking about death can help us, again, no matter what we believe about the afterlife, to focus ourselves more, and to live better and more authentic lives now, according to our most deeply held principles. And also, it can help us, if we were putting off thinking about serious questions (I am not saying any of you are doing that, I think many of you, no matter what your beliefs, do consider these questions) to start thinking about these questions, since we are not going to live forever, perhaps despite popular belief...
Reply
Whether some event is specifically a test or a naturally occurring, craptastic coincidence, I don't think we can ever really know without some divine revelation. But I think that the higher one climbs in closeness to God, the more certain that He will send/allow some sort of Job-like test to hit you full-force. The whole point of the ordeal is to force you to the edge of your faith's limits, so that at the point you are about to give up, you stop trying to do anything and just let God take care of it all. If you succeed in that, you are that much closer to God, and subsequently, having peace on this earth.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, since the whole point of being Christian is to be like Jesus, then we eventually will have to go through everything that Jesus went through. And Jesus was definitely tested many times. In present day, I don't know if you want to consider every aspect of your life, every little setback as a "test". I suppose you could, but to me that sounds very exhausting and counter-productive.
Reply
I agree wholeheartedly with this point: God would never cause actively will anyone to suffer pain. He merely allows the consequences of human action to be played out, which can be quite horrible. But He respects our freedom, so He will not interfere until the end of time when Jesus Christ comes again and definitively takes away all the evil and pain and suffering of human history. I would also like to add that I think God does more than watch: Jesus Christ allowed himself to undergo suffering, to show his solidarity and love for the poor and suffering of this world. Even now he is mysteriously present to those who suffer, and for many this is a source of great comfort. And he is constantly reaching out to all men and women, in the depths of their consciences, to stop comitting actions that lead to the suffering of others. And He will not allow the suffering that some horrible people cause to go unchecked. While it is possible that no one will go to hell, it is a possability that those who spend their lives causing pain to others should consider very seriously.
In any case, for a more extensive explenation of the Catholic view of suffering and evil, please see my live journal: gazingatthesea.livejournal.ocm
Reply
Likewise, if someone is called to be married, but is avoiding it by being in the seminary, by all means, that person should leave. But, that person still needs to go through much prayer and spiritual direction before he can know that.
As for your comments on pain, please see the reply I just gave Helene.
It is impossible to ascribe the result to a divine cause or a wordly cause. I would disagree with this statement on the grounds that all things are ultimately caused by cause. To say that anything is uncaused is to say that it is God.
You have a relationship with God, but I don't think He would seek to test people like you claim. Nothing happens outside the will of God. So, should someone be tested, it would be because He allows it. We can easily see this in the book of Job where God allows Satan to take away all of Job's family, possessions and health. We also see this when Jesus was tempted in the wilderness in Matthew's and Luke's Gospel. I believe that God allows (wills) these tests to occur so that we can grow in our knowledge and love of Him. So, they're not capricious. Further, he already knows how one would respond to a test before it even happens because he knows all time at once. So, they could not be for His sake, but ours.
Anyways, I hope that helps and I'm glad to see that you remembered so much from our previous conversations. It's a good sign that you're asking good questions.
God Bless
--Todd
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