The Future of Torture

[level_head]

A thoughtful post from a friend of a friend has me thinking about the issue of torture. Is it permissible? Is it moral? Is it right?  Not quite the same questions, and I wrote a sort of a rambling reply to her about a framework for considering this unpleasant topic:

Comments

[shockwave77598]

My personal feeling is two-fold

[ford_prefect42]

I actually disagree. I think that it *behooves* white hats to deal in kind with those that we deal with

[lds]

Just for the record: if the US ever makes it a policy to saw off the heads of screaming non-combatants just because Al Qaeda did it to us first, I will repudiate the oath I've taken, burn my passport, and renounce citizenship. I draw that line in the sand.

Call me French if you like. That will never be done in my name.

[ford_prefect42]

Bin laden was a noncombatant. I'd certainly have supported sawing his screaming head off.

It is, or should be, about what *works*.

But yeah, I will agree with you that there is a line. It's just a long, long, long, long ways away from where it is currently drawn.

[lds]

Hell no; not me.

Let me draw this line by using many examples, in an attempt to proselytize my mindset:

I do not advocate against infant (male) circumcision, because an infant's brain has not yet developed the memory "circuits" necessary to be traumatized by the event.

I do not advocate against abortion, for the same reason. It's a humane "kill," and there are many good reasons for it.

I do not advocate against capital punishment, but I do advocate for doing it humanely: one-drug lethal injection, or something very quick and painless like hanging or decapitation in the guillotine.

I advocate managed hunting as good stewardship over animal populations, for example to control overpopulation in deer and pronghorn species that have become "pests" in my county, and even as a way to control the damage from poaching among big-game species in Africa. However, though I am pro-hunting, I have decided not to pursue bow hunting, because the thought of chasing an injured animal until it dies is reprehensible to me

[ford_prefect42]

Fair enough. But my line is drawn elsewhere. I agree with most of the things you've said here, although bow-hunting is in fact, pretty humane *if* the hunter is responsible enough not to take a shot they can't *make*.

But I also think that "noncombatant" doesn't translate to "innocent". I think that pain is a motivator, a deterrent, and potentially, a means of equalization. Bin laden ordered the deaths of 3000 Americans, in many cases, by burning them to death. But he only has 1 head, so to make up for the discrepancy, I would support making his death a little slower than is strictly needed.

[lds]

(Never has there been a more apt LiveJournal discussion thread for that old fax-machine pass-around favorite, so I can't pass up quoting it: "When I get old, I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa... not screaming and crying like all the passengers in his car.")

[jordan179]

I can't see any good reason to make it our policy "to saw off the heads of screaming non-combatants," because this would be useless, but we do have the right to do it to Al-Qaeda operatives, because Al-Qaeda did it to our people. Not even to our operatives, but to a neutral reporter.

On the other hand, would you be morally offended to the point of repudiating our side if (say) we started making it our policy to mix pork fat into the bodies of the enemy dead? This would involve no actual torture, but would probably be more feared by them than mere torture, since according to their superstitions it would deny them Paradise.

Note that they have cheerfully desecrated our dead. Indeed, one of the reasons why they like beheading is that, in their own superstitions, it robs the victim of a honorable afterlife.

[lds]

Fun question, and one I've joked about many times in fact: even some of the troops I worked alongside in Iraq used to ponder the feasibility of "cropdusting" holed-up insurgents with pig blood

[ford_prefect42]

Please note however, that the very simple thing of "getting over" faith does involve being "superhero awesome" as you put it. It involves walking away from an entire worldview, and that isn't something that most people can do.

[lds]

Don't you just hate how all these additional superhero merit badges make you fly "out of trim" when they're sewn on our spandex unitards? We ought to make up some counterbalance weights. Or maybe that's just supposed to be one of our superpowers? I'll work on that one.

[ford_prefect42]

Honestly, I don't get that particular badge. I never was religious. I wanted proof of *everything* from when I was too small to see over the kitchen table.

[lds]

I have many friends who were always intelligent enough to make such demands, but I do feel that my upbringing in a Christian fundamentalist family was a blessing in many ways. It gives me keen insight into issues that our host often writes about (Jihad), because I understand the strength of the cultural influences that feed psychological biases. I know that, when Ahmadinejad gives speeches about Israel being detrimental to the coming of the Twelfth Imam, that we should take him seriously because he really means it. I know that when Amish are willing to go to jail for cutting off the beards of other Amish with whom they have minor doctrinal differences... they really mean it. I know when Dominionists here in the US try to get into elected positions by chanting evangelical buzzwords, they're a serious threat because they really mean it. I know a lot about crowd phenomena and human credulity and "groupthink." I know about the strength of conviction driven by self-shame and denial of natural tendencies

[lds]

(By the way, you have my explicit permission to bury me with a largish quantity of my beloved and oh-so-tasty bacon, or cremate me and use the heat energy to cook some up for yourself.)