Why isn't VK is S5? Seriously. Was it a money issue, a people not liking Connor issue, the writers not knowing what to do with Connor issue, or really just for the sake of plot issue?
This seems to depend a lot on who you ask. VK says that it was partially plot-drive (i.e., adding Spike to the mix stirred things up in interesting ways)and partially driven by the overwhelming hatred of Connor by fans (my words, not his).
Initially, the way things played out was that during the early Spring of....um, JESUS *2003*? Is that right? Ohmygod. Anyways. During the early spring of 2003, there was a lot of talk (again) about how expensive AtS was getting for the WB. Jordan Levin in particular had some kind of bee up his butt about the show or about Whedon or about the show and Whedon. Something. BtVS was wrapping up, and there were a lot of rumors about JM jumping over to AtS after BtVS was over. (You should have seen LJ during that Spring. I think there officially too many wanks to record.)
So, around the end of April, early May, ME started officially leaking info on JM's participation on AtS, to get a feel for fan reaction and so that they could give some numbers to the WB about how much they could expect viewership to increase due to Spike's presence. Spike was initally rumored to be signed up for 12 episodes, and then we heard that JM had said that he wouldn't come on board or anything less than a full season (I don't blame him in the least). I don't know if you were around for this period of time, but the fan reaction towards Spike was the biggest thing I've ever seen in fandom. Jossverse was the biggest fandom in the world (XF was finally waning and HP hadn't hit it huge yet, if memory serves) and Spike was the biggest character in it. Conversely, Connor was almost universally hated and had been since the moment he was born (actually the moment the idea of him was announced, but I digress). Connor-hatred was really the one thing almost everyone could agree on about s4, which is interesting to think about in a post-"Origin" world. It also makes me angry (still) because the end of April/beginning of May corresponded to the last five or so episodes of s4, which is when fan reaction towards Connor started shifting a bit. In the perserve way that fandom can be sometimes, it took Connor revealing that he'd known about Jasmine the whole time to get fans to start trusting him. The whole, Holtz-used-to-tie-me-to-a-tree-and-leave-me-there-to-either-die-or-escape thing seemed to garner some sympathy as well, as did the church scene in "Peace Out." All in all, despite threats of cancellation and wishy-washy feelings about having Spike on the show at all aside, things were looking pretty optimistic. Whedon himself said in a TV Guide article in early May that no one was leaving the show, that rumors of Charisma Carpenter and/or Vincent Kartheiser being fired were wholly unfound. May 8th, "Home" aired. May 12th, they made the announcement that JM was going to become a full member of the show, and CC and VK were out. You're lucky you did not know me during this time. I was INSANE with grief. I left the fandom. I still haven't seen the first ten episode of s5. I still think that Vincent Kartheiser was fired to make financial room for James Marsters. In the perverse way that fandom is somtimes, I enjoy nothing more than writing stories about how these two guys, whose lives almost intersected, and whose success that one year was dependent on the failure of the other, have a lot of buttsex.
I have no doubt whatsoever that VK *and* CC were let go in order to squirrel together the money for Marsters. The numbers for AtS had been down all through Season 4, and the WB pretty much blackmailed ME into bringing Marsters on board for ratings purposes. It was either, "Hire him or the show is cancelled." Yet in true WB cheap-o fashion, it wouldn't cough up the extra dough to implement any of the changes it was demanding. So ME had to get rid of two actors in order to pay for the one that the network was insisting upon.
Of course, ME did everything the network asked for, and the ratings shot up by 20 per cent, and the WB STILL cancelled the fucking show; because they were too cheap to pay the extra money that production companies traditionally demand after a five-year run, when they're officially allowed to syndicate.
I don't think Hallet's salary would have given them enough dosh. CC was the highest paid actor after DB; I think her salary plus VK's salary gave them just enough to pay what Marsters was asking.
Not that I mind that Marsters came on board; obviously, as a shipper, I loved having him there. I just would have liked to have seen Spike and Connor on screen together. It would have made for some fantastic storylines. Plus, VK + JM = acting talent times 10.
Oh, I think CC was fired because she pissed off TPTB back in S3. Cordy's arc in S4 was pretty much tailor-made to make fans dislike the character and be glad to see her go.
I've heard a lot of stories, ranging from showing up for work drunk to being too assertive about control over her character. I don't know how much truth there is to any of them, but it's generally agreed that Cordelia 'going on vacation' for several crucial episodes towards the end of S3 was a cover for straightening out whatever the problems were. Then CC came back pregnant, which didn't endear her to the writers, because they'd just done the Darla pregnancy story and didn't want to do another. Then David Greenwalt, who was Cordelia's biggest supporter among the writers, left the show.
And then we got S4. CC apparently hated her entire storyline, and refused to go with the ending they had in mind (Connor and/or Angel killing Possessed!Cordy in an all-out battle) by saying she wasn't physically up to a big fight scene. And then we have the writers saying that oh, well, they couldn't bring Cordy out of the coma because there was no way to make the character sympathetic again after all that icky Concord stuff, which they just sort of got carried away with and wrote in by mistake, heh heh, so they had to write her out.
Since both sides have (laudably) refused to air their dirty laundry in public, I don't think we'll ever know the whole story. But there's enough smoke to make me think that there was some fire somewhere.
Wow. I hadn't heard any of that stuff (except the writers being p.o.'d that CC got pregnant). Thanks for the info! I love hearing about the inner machinations of the shows, even if they're unconfirmed rumours. :D
Yeah, I wasn't around at all. I first started watching Buffyverse shows in the middle of 2005. I didn't know a lot of this stuff.
actually the moment the idea of him was announced, but I digress
It's stupid to judge something you haven't seen or don't know how will play out, but I admit that when I was first spoiled for AtS, I thought the idea of Connor was stupid. I thought it sounded very similar to what I was spoiled for about Dawn, which I also thought was stupid. It was how Connor came about and was introduced in the show, and then later the acting ability of VK that made me realize I'd been pretty stupid to judge.
which is interesting to think about in a post-"Origin" world
What do you mean?
It also makes me angry (still) because the end of April/beginning of May corresponded to the last five or so episodes of s4, which is when fan reaction towards Connor started shifting a bit. In the perserve way that fandom can be sometimes, it took Connor revealing that he'd known about Jasmine the whole time to get fans to start trusting him. The whole, Holtz-used-to-tie-me-to-a-tree-and-leave-me-there-to-either-die-or-escape thing seemed to garner some sympathy as well, as did the church scene in "Peace Out."
On the last rewatch, it seemed to me as though the writers were working harder to make the audience understand Connor during those eps, too. There were several other littler things than the Holtz-tied-me-to-trees thing that seemed to be trying to actively remind the audience where exactly Connor was coming from: his, "what's a houdini?" line comes to mind, little stuff like that.
You're lucky you did not know me during this time.
All I can say is I'm glad I know you now ;o)
whose lives almost intersected, and whose success that one year was dependent on the failure of the other,
This seems to depend a lot on who you ask. VK says that it was partially plot-drive (i.e., adding Spike to the mix stirred things up in interesting ways)and partially driven by the overwhelming hatred of Connor by fans (my words, not his).
Initially, the way things played out was that during the early Spring of....um, JESUS *2003*? Is that right? Ohmygod. Anyways. During the early spring of 2003, there was a lot of talk (again) about how expensive AtS was getting for the WB. Jordan Levin in particular had some kind of bee up his butt about the show or about Whedon or about the show and Whedon. Something. BtVS was wrapping up, and there were a lot of rumors about JM jumping over to AtS after BtVS was over. (You should have seen LJ during that Spring. I think there officially too many wanks to record.)
So, around the end of April, early May, ME started officially leaking info on JM's participation on AtS, to get a feel for fan reaction and so that they could give some numbers to the WB about how much they could expect viewership to increase due to Spike's presence. Spike was initally rumored to be signed up for 12 episodes, and then we heard that JM had said that he wouldn't come on board or anything less than a full season (I don't blame him in the least). I don't know if you were around for this period of time, but the fan reaction towards Spike was the biggest thing I've ever seen in fandom. Jossverse was the biggest fandom in the world (XF was finally waning and HP hadn't hit it huge yet, if memory serves) and Spike was the biggest character in it. Conversely, Connor was almost universally hated and had been since the moment he was born (actually the moment the idea of him was announced, but I digress). Connor-hatred was really the one thing almost everyone could agree on about s4, which is interesting to think about in a post-"Origin" world. It also makes me angry (still) because the end of April/beginning of May corresponded to the last five or so episodes of s4, which is when fan reaction towards Connor started shifting a bit. In the perserve way that fandom can be sometimes, it took Connor revealing that he'd known about Jasmine the whole time to get fans to start trusting him. The whole, Holtz-used-to-tie-me-to-a-tree-and-leave-me-there-to-either-die-or-escape thing seemed to garner some sympathy as well, as did the church scene in "Peace Out." All in all, despite threats of cancellation and wishy-washy feelings about having Spike on the show at all aside, things were looking pretty optimistic. Whedon himself said in a TV Guide article in early May that no one was leaving the show, that rumors of Charisma Carpenter and/or Vincent Kartheiser being fired were wholly unfound. May 8th, "Home" aired. May 12th, they made the announcement that JM was going to become a full member of the show, and CC and VK were out. You're lucky you did not know me during this time. I was INSANE with grief. I left the fandom. I still haven't seen the first ten episode of s5. I still think that Vincent Kartheiser was fired to make financial room for James Marsters. In the perverse way that fandom is somtimes, I enjoy nothing more than writing stories about how these two guys, whose lives almost intersected, and whose success that one year was dependent on the failure of the other, have a lot of buttsex.
The end.
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Of course, ME did everything the network asked for, and the ratings shot up by 20 per cent, and the WB STILL cancelled the fucking show; because they were too cheap to pay the extra money that production companies traditionally demand after a five-year run, when they're officially allowed to syndicate.
Yes, I am bitter.
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*kinda boggles* Then again, as I understand it, lots of people hate that season.
So ME had to get rid of two actors in order to pay for the one that the network was insisting upon.
It's going to sound sour, but couldn't they've gotten rid of Hallett?
Yes, I am bitter.
Preachin' to the choir, babe.
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Not that I mind that Marsters came on board; obviously, as a shipper, I loved having him there. I just would have liked to have seen Spike and Connor on screen together. It would have made for some fantastic storylines. Plus, VK + JM = acting talent times 10.
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And then we got S4. CC apparently hated her entire storyline, and refused to go with the ending they had in mind (Connor and/or Angel killing Possessed!Cordy in an all-out battle) by saying she wasn't physically up to a big fight scene. And then we have the writers saying that oh, well, they couldn't bring Cordy out of the coma because there was no way to make the character sympathetic again after all that icky Concord stuff, which they just sort of got carried away with and wrote in by mistake, heh heh, so they had to write her out.
Since both sides have (laudably) refused to air their dirty laundry in public, I don't think we'll ever know the whole story. But there's enough smoke to make me think that there was some fire somewhere.
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actually the moment the idea of him was announced, but I digress
It's stupid to judge something you haven't seen or don't know how will play out, but I admit that when I was first spoiled for AtS, I thought the idea of Connor was stupid. I thought it sounded very similar to what I was spoiled for about Dawn, which I also thought was stupid. It was how Connor came about and was introduced in the show, and then later the acting ability of VK that made me realize I'd been pretty stupid to judge.
which is interesting to think about in a post-"Origin" world
What do you mean?
It also makes me angry (still) because the end of April/beginning of May corresponded to the last five or so episodes of s4, which is when fan reaction towards Connor started shifting a bit. In the perserve way that fandom can be sometimes, it took Connor revealing that he'd known about Jasmine the whole time to get fans to start trusting him. The whole, Holtz-used-to-tie-me-to-a-tree-and-leave-me-there-to-either-die-or-escape thing seemed to garner some sympathy as well, as did the church scene in "Peace Out."
On the last rewatch, it seemed to me as though the writers were working harder to make the audience understand Connor during those eps, too. There were several other littler things than the Holtz-tied-me-to-trees thing that seemed to be trying to actively remind the audience where exactly Connor was coming from: his, "what's a houdini?" line comes to mind, little stuff like that.
You're lucky you did not know me during this time.
All I can say is I'm glad I know you now ;o)
whose lives almost intersected, and whose success that one year was dependent on the failure of the other,
I never thought about it that way.
The end.
Again, thanks.
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