I'm just the opposite. If an author writes B/A in a story, is clearly *not* a fan of B/A but is attempting to write B/A as honestly and realistically as possible, biases aside, I can forgive them for a lot more because at least he or she is trying. Not everyone writes B/A the way I do (and thank god because then there would be even more crappy fluff out there than there already is), not everyone views B/A the same. My 'looking glass' isn't the same as yours or any other fan. And that's fine with me. So, while I may not agree with an author's depiction of B/A, I may think, well, that's not really how I see B/A or how I want them to be, I respect and admire the effort the author made to write B/A in a way that does justice to the characters and the pairing, even if he or she is a rabid A/S fan. The final product says a lot, to be sure, but for me, the attempt--as long as it is a fair, reasoned attempt--means more
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If an author writes B/A in a story, is clearly *not* a fan of B/A but is attempting to write B/A as honestly and realistically as possible, biases aside, I can forgive them for a lot more because at least he or she is trying.
See, I *should* feel this way. In fact, I should clarify, I *do* feel this way in my head. I feel like it's better writing, it makes you a better writer, and I really respect the effort. But in my gut, when I'm reading it? Yeah. I think that's why I kept using the word "sick", and why I feel so ashamed of myself.
However, the few serious fics I have written/am currently writing, I make the sincere effort to respect all characters and pairings, even ones I don't care for at all.
This is the part where I'm a hypocrite--because I totally do, too. I wouldn't respect myself if I decided to bash a character, or write them out, or just not even try. For instance, Spike. I do love Spike, but I don't feel like I understand him as I should. But I *want* to write him so I try really hard to understand him. You
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I feel the need to point out that it's not as if every fic *should* have Spike, if it's going to be B/A.
I don't think a fic has to be set in 'mystical time' to not have Spike in it. There are some who feel like B/S got it's closure in S7 (the 'love but not in love' distinction) - and that Spike didn't go to Buffy in AtS-5 specifically because he knew that and it didn't need to be said.
I suppose I should note that I'm drawing a distinction... essentially a brief mention of Spike (for "I cared for him but wasn't in love with him / don't want to spend my life with him" purposes) as opposed to extended exploration of those issues.
I don't think a fic has to be set in 'mystical time' to not have Spike in it.
I don't think so either. There's lots of times when Buffy and Angel are around in canon that Buffy isn't. It would be really easy post-NFA to write Buffy and Angel without Spike (kill Spike off in the alley. That's not bad writing, that's set-up). I do think certain circumstances, such as Buffy coming to W&H in AtS S5 and having an extended relationship with Angel, would be difficult, though.
What I meant to say is that I've read and enjoyed quite a few fics that I can't give a time frame, and that works just as well for me as a specific setting.
This is slightly different than what I'm talking about. Different interpretation are great, imo. More than great. If I only ever wanted to see what I personally felt about Buffy, or Spike, or Angel, or whoever, I wouldn't be here. I wouldn't read fic. I wouldn't talk about the shows. I'd lock myself in a room with a tv and no internet and masturbate a lot, probably.
It's when the view differs from mine, and as I'm reading that view, I suspect that the view is so different because the writer secretly doesn't like the character. It's not the different view point so much as the *reason* for the different view point, and the feeling I get from reading that
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Oh, sweetness! I think I see. Feel versus Think can be extremely troublesome because it's usually such a gut reaction that translating that into words is uber difficult. That I understand. Totally. I gots those moments and when I read things that just don't ring true despite the obvious effort it can be rather frustrating, sort of What the Hell are you watching kind of a connection because it's obviously not the same thing as me. But on such a deeper level, maybe because the author is actively attempting to mask a dislike for the character. Those are characters that I just don't even TRY to write because I can't even find a seam to sneak in through
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I gots those moments and when I read things that just don't ring true despite the obvious effort it can be rather frustrating, sort of What the Hell are you watching kind of a connection because it's obviously not the same thing as me. But on such a deeper level, maybe because the author is actively attempting to mask a dislike for the character.
Yes, exactly, it's both the "ringing false" and the masking that I'm talking about, and that bothers me so much. It's not the author's problem--she is trying to be thoughtful and fair to canon and write well. It's my problem. And it bugs me! I'm glad you understand, though, because I was worried everyone was going to be reading this post and think, "omg! TKP doesn't like other points of view! How narrow IS she?"
Ron Weasley in the movie adaptation of Chamber of Secrets was another big one.Ha! I think that was definitely a love or hate part. I liked it, thought the actor did a good job with it, too
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Yes, right on, except for the part about maybe I'm wrong. Hahaha. I'm such a bitch.
When someone I respect and admire has a different view point, I do really respect that view point, and they do make me think and wonder things I hadn't before. But does that mean I'm wrong? No. Just that we're different.
But yeah, I guess it does boil down to the fact that I have trouble accepting that other people--other really intelligent insightful people I admire--don't like the things I like. And when they write a character I like, but they don't like, sometimes I can just *tell* they don't like said character, and for some reasons their attempt at a fair portrayal of said character strikes a deeper, and much more annoyed, chord inside me than if some random Joe on the street tried to convince me Buffy was a total h0r.
I'm a bad person to ask about this: I have no OTP, and I pretty much like all major canon characters, although I have no patience with some aspects of their personalities. And I spent a year writing a long plotty fic based on what are arguably my least favorite characters in the Buffyverse (Angelus and Drusilla) and apparently succeeded on some level.
But I get the feeling you're not entirely clear in your own mind as to what the problem is, right? And that some people can sell you a Buffy you don't quite agree with, while others, presenting a Buffy who is objectively the same character, with the same qualities, not only fail to convince you but irritate you no end while they do it? That I understand; sometimes it's a writer who is well-respected within the fandon, if not a BNF, sometimes it's even someone who has written stuff I like a whole lot, using the same characterizations, and then I read a new piece and go "bleaurgh
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long plotty fic based on what are arguably my least favorite characters in the Buffyverse (Angelus and Drusilla)
Always meant to read that. And good on you! I totally laud the effort.
But I get the feeling you're not entirely clear in your own mind as to what the problem is, right?
Perhaps. Part if it is, I'm conflicted on the issue. Also, usually I'm much more careful when I post about something, to make sure my meaning is clear.
And that some people can sell you a Buffy you don't quite agree with, while others, presenting a Buffy who is objectively the same character, ...irritate you no endThat's definitely a way of putting it, but rather generalized in relation to the point I'm aiming at. Often, in the latter case you state, what irritates me is what I read between the lines: that this writer hates Buffy. That this writer does not respect Buffy, that writing Buffy for this author is a chore. Other interpretations of Buffy I may not agree with, but if with those Buffys I *don't* recieve the impression that the writer doesn't
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OK, now it's more clear: your objection is to a lack of emotional commitment, on the author's part, to the characterization? There is a level of heartlessness; the other charactors breathe and move and that one is a cardboard figure, who gets propped up to say a few canon-coherant lines but doesn't quite have the three-dimensional quality of the others
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Well. A good writer who cares for Xander might on some occasions write a cardboard Xander, just because oops, they weren't juggling all their fruit as well as they should've been, and they were too focused on the Tara/Willow action. But that cardboardness is often not the same as if they secretly hate Xander. That was careless writing of Xander, not the careful, fair, really serious attempt at writing Xander when the author hates Xander.
I'm talking about the negative vibe I get when I read the latter. redbrickrose mentioned below about how defensive you can get about a character, how you get to where you don't *want* to hear that other people don't like her. It's not quite the same as hearing the characters' faults, or the 'ships' failings. I feel like I'm pretty aware of the characters' I love flaws, and I often love them because of their flaws. But when someone is portraying a character they don't like, and they are doing it with good writing, and with decent characterization, and a firm foothold and canon and everything else, and yet
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Not quite sure what you are saying here. I read your work because it is excellent, even though I don't get your OTP most of the time. But your vision is believable, and for the length of your stories I am able to suspend my disbelief. That is a compliment to your writing, I believe. I think maybe if your eye is twitching, the writing you are twitching over really isn't that great. Could that be?
First, thanks. It's always flattering when someone reads something that's not necessarily their thing.
I think maybe if your eye is twitching, the writing you are twitching over really isn't that great. Could that be?
I'm not sure. I'm reluctant to dismiss a good writer--who not only words things beautifully, but thinks with wonderful insight and care about who the characters are and what they would do--who doesn't like B/A, but took serious time and effort to write it and to write it well--as having written the pairing sub-par merely because it didn't sell me on B/A
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See, I *should* feel this way. In fact, I should clarify, I *do* feel this way in my head. I feel like it's better writing, it makes you a better writer, and I really respect the effort. But in my gut, when I'm reading it? Yeah. I think that's why I kept using the word "sick", and why I feel so ashamed of myself.
However, the few serious fics I have written/am currently writing, I make the sincere effort to respect all characters and pairings, even ones I don't care for at all.
This is the part where I'm a hypocrite--because I totally do, too. I wouldn't respect myself if I decided to bash a character, or write them out, or just not even try. For instance, Spike. I do love Spike, but I don't feel like I understand him as I should. But I *want* to write him so I try really hard to understand him. You ( ... )
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I don't think a fic has to be set in 'mystical time' to not have Spike in it. There are some who feel like B/S got it's closure in S7 (the 'love but not in love' distinction) - and that Spike didn't go to Buffy in AtS-5 specifically because he knew that and it didn't need to be said.
I suppose I should note that I'm drawing a distinction... essentially a brief mention of Spike (for "I cared for him but wasn't in love with him / don't want to spend my life with him" purposes) as opposed to extended exploration of those issues.
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I don't think so either. There's lots of times when Buffy and Angel are around in canon that Buffy isn't. It would be really easy post-NFA to write Buffy and Angel without Spike (kill Spike off in the alley. That's not bad writing, that's set-up). I do think certain circumstances, such as Buffy coming to W&H in AtS S5 and having an extended relationship with Angel, would be difficult, though.
What I meant to say is that I've read and enjoyed quite a few fics that I can't give a time frame, and that works just as well for me as a specific setting.
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It's when the view differs from mine, and as I'm reading that view, I suspect that the view is so different because the writer secretly doesn't like the character. It's not the different view point so much as the *reason* for the different view point, and the feeling I get from reading that ( ... )
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Yes, exactly, it's both the "ringing false" and the masking that I'm talking about, and that bothers me so much. It's not the author's problem--she is trying to be thoughtful and fair to canon and write well. It's my problem. And it bugs me! I'm glad you understand, though, because I was worried everyone was going to be reading this post and think, "omg! TKP doesn't like other points of view! How narrow IS she?"
Ron Weasley in the movie adaptation of Chamber of Secrets was another big one.Ha! I think that was definitely a love or hate part. I liked it, thought the actor did a good job with it, too ( ... )
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When someone I respect and admire has a different view point, I do really respect that view point, and they do make me think and wonder things I hadn't before. But does that mean I'm wrong? No. Just that we're different.
But yeah, I guess it does boil down to the fact that I have trouble accepting that other people--other really intelligent insightful people I admire--don't like the things I like. And when they write a character I like, but they don't like, sometimes I can just *tell* they don't like said character, and for some reasons their attempt at a fair portrayal of said character strikes a deeper, and much more annoyed, chord inside me than if some random Joe on the street tried to convince me Buffy was a total h0r.
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But I get the feeling you're not entirely clear in your own mind as to what the problem is, right? And that some people can sell you a Buffy you don't quite agree with, while others, presenting a Buffy who is objectively the same character, with the same qualities, not only fail to convince you but irritate you no end while they do it? That I understand; sometimes it's a writer who is well-respected within the fandon, if not a BNF, sometimes it's even someone who has written stuff I like a whole lot, using the same characterizations, and then I read a new piece and go "bleaurgh ( ... )
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Always meant to read that. And good on you! I totally laud the effort.
But I get the feeling you're not entirely clear in your own mind as to what the problem is, right?
Perhaps. Part if it is, I'm conflicted on the issue. Also, usually I'm much more careful when I post about something, to make sure my meaning is clear.
And that some people can sell you a Buffy you don't quite agree with, while others, presenting a Buffy who is objectively the same character, ...irritate you no endThat's definitely a way of putting it, but rather generalized in relation to the point I'm aiming at. Often, in the latter case you state, what irritates me is what I read between the lines: that this writer hates Buffy. That this writer does not respect Buffy, that writing Buffy for this author is a chore. Other interpretations of Buffy I may not agree with, but if with those Buffys I *don't* recieve the impression that the writer doesn't ( ... )
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I'm talking about the negative vibe I get when I read the latter. redbrickrose mentioned below about how defensive you can get about a character, how you get to where you don't *want* to hear that other people don't like her. It's not quite the same as hearing the characters' faults, or the 'ships' failings. I feel like I'm pretty aware of the characters' I love flaws, and I often love them because of their flaws. But when someone is portraying a character they don't like, and they are doing it with good writing, and with decent characterization, and a firm foothold and canon and everything else, and yet ( ... )
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Not quite sure what you are saying here. I read your work because it is excellent, even though I don't get your OTP most of the time. But your vision is believable, and for the length of your stories I am able to suspend my disbelief. That is a compliment to your writing, I believe. I think maybe if your eye is twitching, the writing you are twitching over really isn't that great. Could that be?
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I think maybe if your eye is twitching, the writing you are twitching over really isn't that great. Could that be?
I'm not sure. I'm reluctant to dismiss a good writer--who not only words things beautifully, but thinks with wonderful insight and care about who the characters are and what they would do--who doesn't like B/A, but took serious time and effort to write it and to write it well--as having written the pairing sub-par merely because it didn't sell me on B/A ( ... )
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