Everyday I go to work. I work in a kitchen. This kitchen prepares a rather large volume of meat. Meat of all kinds. From all sorts of things
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I totally agree with what you said. It seems to be the topic of discussion with me and friends lately as the "Underground Cafe" opened. While I feel it a good cause I have no reason to go there: I don't really drink coffee and coffee house products (without the use of milk which they won't allow) and I don't like the idea that someone tells me if I want something to eat I can't have my choice: I must have the vegan alternative. While I can eat a vegetable/no animal product meal I think it's important to have the choice. A lot of people disagree with me here but that's how I feel about it.
I especially hate it when vegan’s say thing like "milk is rape". Considering that it is not actually rape (calling that is kind of insulting to rape victims) and that a lot of people who drink milk/eat meat don't give a fuck what other people want in their diet.
Somehow there is a small minority of ignorant assholes that discriminate against people based on diet. The sad thing is most vegans (not all vegetarians mind you) think we're all like that.
Thanks, though it's not really what I'd call a "good job". I'm just sad, and confused. All these well intentioned people, who simply can't look past the macro of what they're doing, to the micro that lets them do it.
If you read my response it’s actually very clear how the “underground” got brought into it. I will explain again however using highlighted text selections from the response:
“It seems to be the topic of discussion with me and friends lately as the ‘Underground Café’ opened”
The topic of veganism has been a topic of conversation as of late amongst my friends and I. The reason it has become so topical is because of places like the café opening. That’s how the Café linked in with my response.
I also felt it relevant because the post was about people have an attitude towards people because they chose to eat one thing or the other. I don’t think people who eat meat have the right to pick on vegetarians/vegans. I also don’t think they have the right to pick on people who choose to eat meat (and/or use dairy products). From what I know of some of the people involved in the café they are the kind of people who say things like “milk is rape”. As much as I think the café is a wonderful Idea I take a bit of concern with their statement that they are for everyone. I know I wouldn’t feel comfortable going there with people around me who would get down on me if they knew I preferred to drink milk as opposed to soy.
Do you know anyone involved with the Underground? What exactly do you know of the people involved with the Underground? Where did you get this information? We do not look down upon people who eat meat and dairy. We don't agree with it, but we don't discriminate against people based on that. Not even all of our members are vegan (hey, not even all of our members are vegetarian). VAC/The Underground feels that cruelty free(to animals both non-human and human) options are important in all aspects of our life. It is something we try to practice in our day to day lives.
I don't really drink coffee and coffee house products (without the use of milk which they won't allow)
The use of milk goes against the statement of principles and the morals/ethics of the cafe and those involved with it. For that reason, milk is not used at the cafe.
I don't like the idea that someone tells me if I want something to eat I can't have my choice: I must have the vegan alternative.
How do you think it feels being a vegan and going to a restaurant and not having a choice. Or going to a coffee shop and not being able to put soy milk in your coffee? Eating something without meat and/or dairy does not conflict with your ethics or morals, so I fail to see where the issue is.
While I can eat a vegetable/no animal product meal I think it's important to have the choice. A lot of people disagree with me here but that's how I feel about it.
You do have that choice. You can go anywhere else in this city and have that choice. We, however, generally do not have that choice.
I especially hate it when vegan’s say thing like "milk is rape". Considering that it is not actually rape (calling that is kind of insulting to rape victims)
This is MY opinion only, not the collective as a whole. Rape is defined as Abusive or improper treatment; violation. Cows are continually impregnated to keep them lactating so that farmers may take their milk. To save time and human labor, factory farmers use milk machines that often cause cuts, injuries, and electric shocks to cows utters. Farmers also use an array of drugs, including bovine growth hormone and antibiotics, to increase productivity. They are also forced to produce ten times more milk daily than a regular cow would produce as a result of these hormones and drugs. This causes the cows pain and stress. Cows, like humans, have a nine month gestation period. As you can imagine being continually pregnant also would be detrimental to a cows health. I would have to say that this would be "abusive or improper treatment" or a "violation". Picture this being forced upon a human female.
Somehow there is a small minority of ignorant assholes that discriminate against people based on diet. The sad thing is most vegans (not all vegetarians mind you) think we're all like that.
That statement in itself makes you ignorant. How many vegans do you know? How can you say that most vegans are ignorant assholes? Do you even take the time to try to understand our beliefs? I don't go around pushing my beliefs on others and neither do any of my vegan friends (most of who are part of the Underground/Vision Action Collective). If someone asks, I will not hesitate to explain my beliefs and my reasoning behind being vegan.
This is gonna be point form because I’m too tired and I frankly think you missed my point and I don’t need to dignify you with a full out response:
Point 1) I actually do know a few experiences that I was very close to where members of this collective have screamed things like “Milk is rape” over and over again and attacked friends for not understanding (or bothering to understand) what they were actually saying in their writings (kind of like what you’re doing here).
Point 2) I actually do feel sorry that vegans have been forced to feel excluded at other restaurants/cafes. That was never brought up in the post but it is an opinion I hold and have for a while.
Point 3) I LOVE how you excluded what you wanted to of your definition of rape! I looked it up the same place you obviously did cause I got this: The crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse. The act of seizing and carrying off by force; abduction. Abusive or improper treatment; violation: a rape of justice.
Notice how the submit to sexual acts was at the top of the list? BUT you decided to exclude that. Very clever.
ALSO I do disagree with factory farms but were around here do you get much factory farms? If I buy my milk from a company I know I know there is a good chance I’m getting my milk from a family farm. A farm where the cow has naturally given birth and is required to be milked because it’s harmful to them if y ou don’t.
Point 4) I NEVER called Vegans ignorant assholes. You just need to learn to read. Here’s what I said: “Somehow there is a small minority of ignorant assholes that discriminate against people based on diet. The sad thing is most vegans (not all vegetarians mind you) think we're all like that “. If you read that properly I’m saying there are ignorant asshole amongst the people who chose to eat meat who do say bad things about vegans based solely on their diet. Then I say that most vegans/vegetarians seem to think we all believe that. I was actually criticizing the assholes who are ignorant to vegans/vegetarians. Not critiquing people like you!
When it all comes down to it I don’t want to point fingers and totally say things that I know are true and call people out. My post was agreeing with Tim that diet doesn’t matter. Now you’re making it matter. Do you see how you are being counter productive?
i don't understand why you don't like the idea of the underground cafe. the whole point of it i think is so people who don't consume animal products finally has a place where they can go out and have a good time at a cafe. did you stop to think about how this underground cafe is probably one of only a few places that a vegan and a non vegan friend can go and both can have what ever they want?
if anything you've missed the whole point and the underground cafe offers the most choices for everyone. but i suppose i could say the same thing, i don't like going to tim horton's and having them tell me that i can't have my choice of muffin because they are not vegan.
so basically if i wanted to be ingnorant like you, i could simply reply with: "i agree, I don't like the idea that someone tells me if I want something to eat I can't have my choice: I must have the non-vegan alternative."
also, i know a rape victim who has no problem with the "dairy is rape" phrase. so sorry, i'll have to say it's not ass offensive as you like to think.
I also know a rape victim. You're not special. And he takes great offense to the phrase "dairy is rape". Both these victims are allowed to have their opinions, and they're both right.
you know, nobody said they had a problem with the cafe in the first place. all he said was that the topic of vegetarianism has been coming up with talk of the cafe opening. chill out man, go get laid or something and calm down.
ps- *I* find the phrase "milk is rape" offensive, and not much offends me.
ps- *I* find the phrase "milk is rape" offensive, and not much offends me.
Same here, Sharlene (someone, you know the conversations we've had!) I also find the phrase "milk is rape" terribly offensive for a host of reasons, and I know I really shouldn't be posting this, as it's only going to cause more angry comments, I'm sure. As someone who knows a rape victim, as someone who grew up on a family farm, and as someone who finds the comparison of milking a cow and rape incredibly hurtful and disgusting, I feel bad for the people who blurt it out, believing their comparison to be factual.
I would love to see you call my dad, a man who has invested over fifty years of his life, and a part of a long line of farmers, a rapist. I would love for you to say it to my face, to my sister's face, to my mother's, to my grandfather, to my cousin's, to all of us. By your definition that's what I am, and that's what my family is. A pack of fucking rapists. And if that's what you think I am, for being a proud fucking farmer, for having the best goddamn family in the fucking Maritimes, then more power to you. But if it must be so, I'm also going to think of you as an ignorant, intolerant moron.
I don't expect this to change any opinions, but there's more than one side. And I also expect an over-the-top "GRRR! RAPE!!!!" response, but feel free to save yourself the trouble. Besides, I'm already in bad standings with many people in this "liberal" city . . .so whatever. The comments of a rapist like me doesn't matter, right?
I know I'm pretty much adding fuel to the fire, but not everything is as black and white as people believe it to be. My apologies if I've offended anyone, or gotten carried away. I just can't take uneducated, manipulated bullshit like this. Tim? Shar? You guys . . . you guys are the fucking best.
I'm all for vegetarianism and veganism. I think it's a great thing, and fully support those who believe it's right for them. I agree with Tim that one's diet doesn't matter. It's not what you eat that makes you who you are.
I also agree with Vaughan's sentiments that people who eat meat do not have the right to pick on or force their beliefs on vegetarians/vegans, or vegetarians/vegans have the right to pick on or force their beliefs on people who choose to eat meat (and/or use dairy products). It's great that there are places for those with different eating preferences can eat whatever the hell they want.
Aside from that all my above comments still stand, and it makes me no better or worse than anyone else.
I just want to point out that I never said i had a problem with the underground cafe. I actually think it's a good idea. I just don't think it's the place for me. My problem is that we put up to many barriers in life that seperate us and I wish we could work on that before we get worked up over vegan cafes.
I especially hate it when vegan’s say thing like "milk is rape". Considering that it is not actually rape (calling that is kind of insulting to rape victims) and that a lot of people who drink milk/eat meat don't give a fuck what other people want in their diet.
Somehow there is a small minority of ignorant assholes that discriminate against people based on diet. The sad thing is most vegans (not all vegetarians mind you) think we're all like that.
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“It seems to be the topic of discussion with me and friends lately as the ‘Underground Café’ opened”
The topic of veganism has been a topic of conversation as of late amongst my friends and I. The reason it has become so topical is because of places like the café opening. That’s how the Café linked in with my response.
I also felt it relevant because the post was about people have an attitude towards people because they chose to eat one thing or the other. I don’t think people who eat meat have the right to pick on vegetarians/vegans. I also don’t think they have the right to pick on people who choose to eat meat (and/or use dairy products). From what I know of some of the people involved in the café they are the kind of people who say things like “milk is rape”. As much as I think the café is a wonderful Idea I take a bit of concern with their statement that they are for everyone. I know I wouldn’t feel comfortable going there with people around me who would get down on me if they knew I preferred to drink milk as opposed to soy.
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I don't really drink coffee and coffee house products (without the use of milk which they won't allow)
The use of milk goes against the statement of principles and the morals/ethics of the cafe and those involved with it. For that reason, milk is not used at the cafe.
I don't like the idea that someone tells me if I want something to eat I can't have my choice: I must have the vegan alternative.
How do you think it feels being a vegan and going to a restaurant and not having a choice. Or going to a coffee shop and not being able to put soy milk in your coffee? Eating something without meat and/or dairy does not conflict with your ethics or morals, so I fail to see where the issue is.
While I can eat a vegetable/no animal product meal I think it's important to have the choice. A lot of people disagree with me here but that's how I feel about it.
You do have that choice. You can go anywhere else in this city and have that choice. We, however, generally do not have that choice.
I especially hate it when vegan’s say thing like "milk is rape". Considering that it is not actually rape (calling that is kind of insulting to rape victims)
This is MY opinion only, not the collective as a whole. Rape is defined as Abusive or improper treatment; violation. Cows are continually impregnated to keep them lactating so that farmers may take their milk. To save time and human labor, factory farmers use milk machines that often cause cuts, injuries, and electric shocks to cows utters. Farmers also use an array of drugs, including bovine growth hormone and antibiotics, to increase productivity. They are also forced to produce ten times more milk daily than a regular cow would produce as a result of these hormones and drugs. This causes the cows pain and stress. Cows, like humans, have a nine month gestation period. As you can imagine being continually pregnant also would be detrimental to a cows health. I would have to say that this would be "abusive or improper treatment" or a "violation". Picture this being forced upon a human female.
Somehow there is a small minority of ignorant assholes that discriminate against people based on diet. The sad thing is most vegans (not all vegetarians mind you) think we're all like that.
That statement in itself makes you ignorant. How many vegans do you know? How can you say that most vegans are ignorant assholes? Do you even take the time to try to understand our beliefs? I don't go around pushing my beliefs on others and neither do any of my vegan friends (most of who are part of the Underground/Vision Action Collective). If someone asks, I will not hesitate to explain my beliefs and my reasoning behind being vegan.
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ps. i'm pretty sure there's no need to argue here.
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Point 1) I actually do know a few experiences that I was very close to where members of this collective have screamed things like “Milk is rape” over and over again and attacked friends for not understanding (or bothering to understand) what they were actually saying in their writings (kind of like what you’re doing here).
Point 2) I actually do feel sorry that vegans have been forced to feel excluded at other restaurants/cafes. That was never brought up in the post but it is an opinion I hold and have for a while.
Point 3) I LOVE how you excluded what you wanted to of your definition of rape! I looked it up the same place you obviously did cause I got this:
The crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse.
The act of seizing and carrying off by force; abduction.
Abusive or improper treatment; violation: a rape of justice.
Notice how the submit to sexual acts was at the top of the list? BUT you decided to exclude that. Very clever.
ALSO I do disagree with factory farms but were around here do you get much factory farms? If I buy my milk from a company I know I know there is a good chance I’m getting my milk from a family farm. A farm where the cow has naturally given birth and is required to be milked because it’s harmful to them if y ou don’t.
Point 4) I NEVER called Vegans ignorant assholes. You just need to learn to read. Here’s what I said: “Somehow there is a small minority of ignorant assholes that discriminate against people based on diet. The sad thing is most vegans (not all vegetarians mind you) think we're all like that “. If you read that properly I’m saying there are ignorant asshole amongst the people who chose to eat meat who do say bad things about vegans based solely on their diet. Then I say that most vegans/vegetarians seem to think we all believe that. I was actually criticizing the assholes who are ignorant to vegans/vegetarians. Not critiquing people like you!
When it all comes down to it I don’t want to point fingers and totally say things that I know are true and call people out. My post was agreeing with Tim that diet doesn’t matter. Now you’re making it matter. Do you see how you are being counter productive?
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the whole point of it i think is so people who don't consume animal products finally has a place where they can go out and have a good time at a cafe.
did you stop to think about how this underground cafe is probably one of only a few places that a vegan and a non vegan friend can go and both can have what ever they want?
if anything you've missed the whole point and the underground cafe offers the most choices for everyone.
but i suppose i could say the same thing, i don't like going to tim horton's and having them tell me that i can't have my choice of muffin because they are not vegan.
so basically if i wanted to be ingnorant like you, i could simply reply with:
"i agree, I don't like the idea that someone tells me if I want something to eat I can't have my choice: I must have the non-vegan alternative."
also, i know a rape victim who has no problem with the "dairy is rape" phrase.
so sorry, i'll have to say it's not ass offensive as you like to think.
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And he takes great offense to the phrase "dairy is rape". Both these victims are allowed to have their opinions, and they're both right.
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ps- *I* find the phrase "milk is rape" offensive, and not much offends me.
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Same here, Sharlene (someone, you know the conversations we've had!) I also find the phrase "milk is rape" terribly offensive for a host of reasons, and I know I really shouldn't be posting this, as it's only going to cause more angry comments, I'm sure. As someone who knows a rape victim, as someone who grew up on a family farm, and as someone who finds the comparison of milking a cow and rape incredibly hurtful and disgusting, I feel bad for the people who blurt it out, believing their comparison to be factual.
I would love to see you call my dad, a man who has invested over fifty years of his life, and a part of a long line of farmers, a rapist. I would love for you to say it to my face, to my sister's face, to my mother's, to my grandfather, to my cousin's, to all of us. By your definition that's what I am, and that's what my family is. A pack of fucking rapists. And if that's what you think I am, for being a proud fucking farmer, for having the best goddamn family in the fucking Maritimes, then more power to you. But if it must be so, I'm also going to think of you as an ignorant, intolerant moron.
I don't expect this to change any opinions, but there's more than one side. And I also expect an over-the-top "GRRR! RAPE!!!!" response, but feel free to save yourself the trouble. Besides, I'm already in bad standings with many people in this "liberal" city . . .so whatever. The comments of a rapist like me doesn't matter, right?
I know I'm pretty much adding fuel to the fire, but not everything is as black and white as people believe it to be. My apologies if I've offended anyone, or gotten carried away. I just can't take uneducated, manipulated bullshit like this. Tim? Shar? You guys . . . you guys are the fucking best.
-Harvey
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I'm all for vegetarianism and veganism. I think it's a great thing, and fully support those who believe it's right for them. I agree with Tim that one's diet doesn't matter. It's not what you eat that makes you who you are.
I also agree with Vaughan's sentiments that people who eat meat do not have the right to pick on or force their beliefs on vegetarians/vegans, or vegetarians/vegans have the right to pick on or force their beliefs on people who choose to eat meat (and/or use dairy products). It's great that there are places for those with different eating preferences can eat whatever the hell they want.
Aside from that all my above comments still stand, and it makes me no better or worse than anyone else.
-Harvey
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