OOC: Summary of HRW knot on crafter-riders, 3/1/10

[leovaried]

The HRW knot had a big discussion tonight, and this is what we (those of us present) came up with. XD It was double-checked on the knot and then posted here for length.

*cheers Ajatha, Gabrion, K'del, P'ax, Taikrin, Teris, Tiriana, Vyshani, and W'chek!*

Comments

[thumpykai]

I wasn't there, but I have thoughts to share!

Meanwhile, posted crafters might worry that the Weyr leadership might want to replace their crafters with riders (rider-harpers for signing Weyr-specific deals?).

In one of the first two Dragon- books (I can never keep them straight), there's mention of the Weyrsinger, who is essentially a Harper-Rider (or a Rider-Harper). I think he's the old bluerider who dies in the first Fall, but without going to look, I'm not positive. P't-somebody?

I have no idea why the title of Weyrsinger came about, and I suspect neither does Anne, but it does lean toward strict book-canon agreeing with the ideas y'all have come up with. I would imagine that the Weyrsinger was a Sr. App or maaaaybe a J'man before he got Searched, but I could also see a basic apprentice going back for more training after Impression and assuming the title then. It also suggests that Weyrs have had their own very special Rider-Crafters for a while, if there are fancy-schmancy titles for some of them. (Weyrsewer? Weyrcowboy?)

A Rider-Crafter who wishes to be a posted crafter at their Weyr is far more locked into their contract than a regular crafter. Madilla (to pick on her) can either wait until the end of her contract and leave with no hard feelings or penalties, or talk to her craft and have them negotiate her out of the contract early. Gabrion (assuming his cunning plan is successful) has more hoops to jump through if he doesn't want to be there anymore. If he transfers either his new Weyr would have to sign a contract with the Healers, or he wouldn't be paid for any Healer work he does. He essentially has two contracts to fulfill - one with HRW as a rider, and one with Healer Hall as a crafter.

I would imagine that for most riders, the Weyr either flat out pays for their training or subsidizes them heavily, either in cold hard marks or by renegotiating tithes/contracts. Only a very few riders are going to be able to afford classes by themselves. But the Weyrs could 'earn' some of that money back by claiming the rider's output for a certain amount of time, like the small towns who finance a physician's training on the condition that they work as that town's doctor for five-ten years.

It also (he said, and my goodness this is getting long) might make sense for those riders who want crafter training to be removed from the wings. If they're undergoing training, whether it be as a paying student or apprentice/j'man level, they may not necessarily have time to do sweeps, drills, and the other busy-work that keeps a rider hopping. Of course, they also might (thinking of people who work full time and go to university full time), so it would have to be negotiated on a case-by-case basis.

I wonder if the Rider-Crafter discussion should be, in general, moved to the forum? Is the forum even still up? We might be able to get a better cross-section of thoughts and etc. that way, since this seems to be moving toward a game-wide discussion (in general, not just because I poked my nose in!). Lots of interesting thoughts from everybody.

[breedingtrue]

Just to support Kai, the weyrsinger was at Benden Weyr. C'gan and blue Tagath, both deceased in first threadfall, Ninth Pass.

[leovaried]

Thanks, Ajatha. Names R fun!

[gabrion]

Here's an interesting question: can rider-crafters be posted to a hall or hold? Would the weyr allow it? Would facilities be adequate?

In the books, every hold and hall gets a watchrider in the 9th pass. Ruatha accomodates both Ruth and the watchdragon, but Jaxom has enough rank to get the hold remodeled for him, and I suspect that's what happened in that case.

If we assume watchrider accomodations resemble weyrs, we can safely assume room for one or two dragons (some weyrs can fit two; so might some watchrider quarters, but you'd have to share with whatever random rider was also posted to that place - AWKward!). MAYBE three if it's a big hold, or a rich one that really wants that rider-crafter and is willing to build or remodel a space for them.

[leovaried]

Personally, I could see rider-crafters posted to a Hall or Hold, sure. It would just have to be as the watchrider, with the crafting abilities being a special bonus. (Which doesn't mean somewhere couldn't try it ICly and get the smackdown from the Crafthall, which is what I think would happen since it's their prerogative to have someone posted there, I suppose...)

How does that sound?

[gabrion]

Mmm, I don't think that would work if the watchrider is supposed to actually WATCH for most of the day, every day - s/he wouldn't be able to craft, too.

[leovaried]

Weyrcowboy. I love it. XD Perhaps in the Records somewhere there's a mention of a Weyrsinger, even if it fell into disuse somewhere between then and now?

The idea of double contracts is really interesting! Most of it I think I follow, but I do have a question. You said, "If he transfers either his new Weyr would have to sign a contract with the Healers, or he wouldn't be paid for any Healer work he does." Paid by whom? If it's paid by the Weyr, couldn't they count that towards his room/board/wage? If it's paid by the Hall... would they even do that to begin with? Interesting problems. XD

I would imagine that for most riders, the Weyr either flat out pays for their training or subsidizes them heavily, either in cold hard marks or by renegotiating tithes/contracts. Only a very few riders are going to be able to afford classes by themselves. But the Weyrs could 'earn' some of that money back by claiming the rider's output for a certain amount of time, like the small towns who finance a physician's training on the condition that they work as that town's doctor for five-ten years.

*nods* Something that supports that last part is what W'chek noted last night, that a doctor can work part-time and still be valuable. (Of course, he's likely to wind up with less experience over time.)

Another way to afford classes might be a friend/mentor in the Craft who'd be willing to do it (unofficially?) for favors or even gratis. (For that matter, the Craft might allow some classes for the right sort of favors...) Like, "My best friend from apprenticeship is now a journeyman and is going to teach me everything!" or "My daddy is the Masterhealer!" As with anything else, one hopes that would-be Special Snowflakes wouldn't abuse this.

It also [...] might make sense for those riders who want crafter training to be removed from the wings.

Could they perhaps be assigned to a light duty wing, such as the old/infirm? I'd think their dragons would do well with the exercise and socialization. (Of course, who knows, someone might want to play, "I'm sorry, Dragonth, I knew you liked naps but I didn't realize you'd turn into a lump like Nemorth if we didn't go flying a lot!" Perhaps someone who's just taking one class, too, might get RP out of not getting enough sleep or much fun time because of balancing that with the normal wing.) It sounds like an interesting topic to ICly try to balance, and something different Weyrs could choose to do differently if they liked, case-by-case like you said.

I wonder if the Rider-Crafter discussion should be, in general, moved to the forum? [...] Lots of interesting thoughts from everybody.

Definitely interesting thoughts! I wish I had originally posted the summary to hrweyr to begin with, because I want to reinforce that this is people from HRW (who were on at the time) talking and not HRW's Official Opinion (which is what norcon might have felt like). I'm not sure what the status of the forum is at this point.

[thumpykai]

Paid by whom? If it's paid by the Weyr, couldn't they count that towards his room/board/wage? If it's paid by the Hall... would they even do that to begin with? Interesting problems.

I have aaaaabsolutely no idea, to be honest. The whole 'Crafters paid by the Weyr' thing falls smack into the realm of Handwavium for me (it just happens, and I have no idea what the details are), so I'm just making this up as I go along.

However! What I meant when I said If he transfers ... his new Weyr would have to sign a contract with the Healers, or he wouldn't be paid for any Healer work he does. is something like this: Let's say that Gabrion is successful in his plan to be both a rider and a journeyman healer, and later decides to transfer from HRW to IGW. If he doesn't have a contract with either his Weyr or the Hall to work as a Weyrnurse, then any time he spends down in the infirmary will be as a volunteer. He won't get any additional payment from either IGW or Healer Hall for working there. (Of course, he also won't be scheduled for shifts!)

I really have no idea how - or who - would be responsible for paying a Rider-Crafter, or how many additional marks they'd pick up as a stipend. Or if he'd even get a stipend at all while training, or if the Weyr would take back some of his stipend after the training is complete... I'll leave that for others to decide. :)

[gabrion]

Since a rider-crafter would be substituting at least some craft duties in place of rider duties (at least a healer definitely would; this might make less sense in the case of, I dunno, a weaver) ... I don't think they should be allowed to double dip and draw two salaries. Maybe half and half from each source, or some combo negotiated between weyr and hall depending on specific duties.

[0changemystars0]

Picking on your example, because it's easier to springboard off of:

In the case of Crafters who actually craft my take on it is that most if not all of their pay comes from their work. So, it's not Hall/Hold/Weyr paying them at all, but the people purchasing the goods they make. The 'safety-net' provided by a contract with the place they're posted to, or falling under the 'protection' of their Hall, is such that if the crafter has a dry spell, they don't lose room-and-board even though they're not bringing in (as many) marks.

YMMV on this however, that's mostly my opinion of how things would logically work.

Which of course brings me to the RP-oriented point of: crafting crafters, could potentially really object to dragonriding competition. That craftmark is what separates a Weaver from "just a seamstress" or a Woodcrafter from "just someone skilled at whittling." And it brings higher prices than 'common' goods, and the higher the rank of the maker, the higher the price of the finished product. So really, a lot of crafters could look at this as a lowering of their own... status? Not the right word. Meh. Something.