Realizing that your own mistakes that hurt others were indeed mistakes and not deliberate is a key thing. It's a lot easier to forgive others for their mistakes when you understand that. It's a lot easier to forgive others when you've learned how to forgive yourself, and have come to understand that no matter how bad you've messed up, it's not unforgivable. It's perspective that makes the difference, and that perspective has to start within yourself.
Decisions and choices like that are routed through my heart, and my mind full of experiences, rather than decided coldly based on a set of rules and whether they were followed to the letter. I've forgiven some pretty unworthy-seeming people that I couldn't have otherwise. See, I can say I forgave someone because I'm supposed to, but unless it reaches my heart, it isn't real. If it isn't real, it doesn't count as following the rules, because God knows your heart. Oops.
Am I perfect? Not even close. Am I an expert on any subject? Only on the subject of what I have personally learned, what I have chosen to seek and to embrace, and how my own life has changed. Am I done changing? Do I think I have it all figured out and I'm done learning more? Nope. I just think I need to practice what I've already learned, while slowly adding to my understanding of what God expects of me, and how I'm to accomplish those things. When I'm ready for the next lesson, God himself will let me know. And I've gotten pretty good at understanding when I'm learning something new before it's a five year hindsight. I don't always like the lesson, I don't always like the answer, but there is something key to it all that I get now, that I didn't get back when. That nurturing the Self stuff? Yeah, that. Forgiving myself is at the top of the list. Believing that I am God's child, prone to mistakes but forgiven and loved anyway makes a difference that all the preachers and Bible verses never could. And if a perfect God who is without sin can believe that I'm worthy of forgiveness, that I'm capable of learning and being something so much better, who am I to stubbornly insist I have no worth?
I'm sure you consider it your mission to educate all poor delusional sinners about how they're going to hell if they don't do things the way you do them. Hey, I'm all about spreading the Word, teaching others a better way. But I'd like to remind you, dear, that not everyone arrives at the same place by the exact same route. I have no idea what your life experience is, but the person you are today is a probably a logical result of those experiences. As for me, if you subtract the New Age stuff that absolutely changed my thinking, my life, my everything, then the logical result of my life experiences would definitely be something very different than who I made a personal choice to become. I'd be useless to myself, the world, or God at best. I'd be a lot less than a law abiding citizen or dead from suicide at worst.
So, do I think you're totally wrong in your concepts of how to live one's life and how to think every thought? No. You're probably on to something bigger than I am. Then again, perhaps when Judgment Day arrives, you'll find that you were the fool who followed the wrong path, after all, and that you should have tried harder to see the forest around all the trees. The point is, no one on earth actually KNOWS.
And let's assume that the Bible is perfect. It's still incomprehensible to me. When I ask twenty people to explain ONE PASSAGE's meaning to me, and get fifteen separate answers, I see a problem. I do not understand the book and I do NOT trust the interpretation of Man. Therefore, I do not try to learn from that book, because doing so made things worse for me.
It's like learning Algebra. If you don't understand the instructions and examples in the book, you ask a teacher. If they cannot help you to understand, but instead confuse you further, what do you do? You HAVE to understand, so you find a tutor.
Well, my dear, God Himself is my tutor. He never ever talks smugly over my head. He understands, without my having to explain, exactly what I need in order to understand. He tailors His messages and my practice exercises to ME. He is available day and night whenever I have questions or need. I'd say I'm probably in safer Hands that I would be trusting my salvation to the interpretations of the preacher down the street.
I have one piece of advice for you, because frankly, no one is so learned that they can't be advised or reminded of something they already know.
Before you judge someone, get to know something about them. It's amazing how much your persective can change with some background information and understanding. Or better yet, don't judge them at all. After all, it's AGAINST THE RULES.
Stan: I apologize for airing my hurt and my anger. I kept silent until I could no longer do so. If I offend, I apologize.
Again, I will make a longer post to reply in a bit. First, let me say this: My friend asked for an answer. I gave him one. You gave him another that I perceive to be in opposition to the answer I gave. My reaction was to point out the difference. Did I say you weren't heartfelt or caring? Did I say you didn't have positive intentions? No. I believe you were and had all those things. The problem is I see your answer leading my friend down the wrong path. As I said before, if my reply hurt you... it was not my intent. I'm trying to protect someone.
Now, as for our interactions: If you think I am claiming to know all about you and to judge you, you mistake my position. I can guess a good bit, yeah. You seem like someone who could do the same. I know Stan has great intuition for people, their motives, their impulses, etc. We used to make a study of eyes. By looking at someones eyes, we could read a lot of things about them. Were we just guessing? Maybe partly. But, based on the responses we got from those we examined, we had learned at least something about reading people in that way. Even that doesn't mean I know you. I've been reacting to your statements. I've looked at the arguments you've made and analyzed them. I know heart-to-head conversions aren't always perfect, so I make sure to say "as I understand it" quite a bit. If I take something you've said out of context, let me know! Tell me what you really meant, and I'll reanalyze.
As far as judging you goes... well, it isn't my place to judge you in the ultimate sense. What I can judge is the accuracy of your arguments from a Biblical perspective. Is that judging you? I don't think so. Hey, if I say things that go against the Bible, I'm wrong. Does that mean I'm damned? No. Can I still learn, or discover mistakes in my understanding? Of course! But, you've admitted, so can you. The truth is, I'm very glad to have this discussion with you. I'd love to get to know more about you. I'd love for you to understand where I'm coming from as well.
I've never in my life "hit it off" so poorly with anyone. Ask Stan. So, this will be a new experience for me. How about this, we practice this whole forgiveness thing we both agree is important (if for different reasons) and start afresh. In a little while, I'll express my point-of-view to you regarding your latest reply. You can then give me your reasons for not believing me or whatever. We'll keep it civil. I promise I won't be making any personal attacks. I may, however, point out errors in your arguments as I see them... please don't mistake those attacks as being personal.
If you are unwilling to talk to me... if I've hurt you too much already, and there is no way that we can have a discussion about anything, let me know. I'll back down from this thread at your request as well. You and Stan can discuss things without me here; and I'll talk to Stan elsewhere.
A starting point
anonymous
October 9 2005, 04:03:04 UTC
My apologies for the lack of posts. I've had out-of-town company today. The post I need to make may take a while to write, so I'm going to hold off until tomorrow.... unless, of course, I get word that I should take a hike.
Re: A starting point, part 1.lendondainOctober 9 2005, 21:12:18 UTC
Sorry for taking so long to reply. Things have been pretty hectic around here for the last couple of days.
First let me say to G. (is it okay if I use your IRC handle here?), you did not offend me, and I doubt you offended my friend (btw man, can we use either your LJ handle or some other name for you here?). He is my best friend and the godfather of my son. I've known him for 11 years. He is the kindest person I have ever met, and I seriously doubt he was making a personal attack against you. I'm very happy to have the both of you comment on my journal, especially in this discussion.
Alright, the rest of this is in response to the very long and well thought out religious argument offered by my friend.
I want to touch on three things. First, very simply, I think there is a huge difference between pride and self-respect or a knowledge of one's own worth or potential. I refuse to subscribe to any philosophy that doesn't allow for such a distinction. Also, I don't love others because God tells me to. I love others because they are worth loving! Does that make the love I have for the people in my life any less valid? Also, doesn't the fact that the people around us inspire love say something about their worth? Shouldn't we acknowledge that worth?
Secondly, I disagree with your reasoning behind why forgiveness is a good thing. I don't forgive people because I, too, am a sinner or a thief. I forgive people because of what it would do to my own soul if I didn't. Think about the emotional hurt and baggage we would carry around with us if we never forgave people. Think about the kind of people we would become if we carried our grudges with us. (Example: the old Casey.) Much of the Bible gives us instructions on how to make our lives better while we are here on earth, and I think God tells us to forgive people not because we are no better than the people we are forgiving (though that is usually true) but because we doom ourselves to a miserable life if we lose the power to forgive. (I know my own life got easier as soon as I was able to forgive my mother for all the crap she did to me.)
You know, these two points remind me why I have had such a hard time accepting Christianity up to this point. The Bible, as you and so many others interpret it, takes such a negative view of life. "We're all sinners here, and we should follow God's commandments in order to escape eternal damnation." Yes, we are all sinners here, but we are also all stuck here until we die. We should be following God's commandments so we can be the best people we can be and live the best lives we're capable of while we are here on this earth. Man, there are those of us who are less concerned with affirming the correct eternal destination and more concerned with the task of becoming a decent person. I know, I know. Romans 3:10, "There is none righteous, no, not one." I agree with that, but I still want to be the best person that I am CAPABLE of being while I am here. I know that that best is not good enough for God, but for me, it is about fulfilling my potential.
Re: A starting point, part 2lendondainOctober 9 2005, 21:13:15 UTC
Look, God created us, but he didn't make us perfect or the whole Garden of Eden thing would have never happened and none of us would be sinners. Talk about your cosmic pranks. A perfect being creating imperfect offspring. He gave us free will. He allowed us to be our own beings, capable of choosing for ourselves how to live. I cannot believe that he did that as a test to see which of us would follow him and which of us would jump off the cliff and into hell. Talk about your perverted forms of entertainment. Well, I refuse to believe that the Almighty gets his jollies that way. I think that free will he gave us serves another purpose. I believe he gave us freedom to choose so that we would someday have the choice to become better than we currently are. Now turn off your evolutionist conspiracy sirens, I don't think this will come about by evolving into a higher life form. I think this will come about by modifying our current behavior. But as for the potential to rise above our current state, that's stated in the Bible. Genesis 3:22, "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever...." This verse tells me two things. 1) We have the potential to become better and greater than we are. 2) We have the power to know for ourselves the reasoning behind the things God says are good and the things God says are evil. We have the power to figure out correctly, for ourselves, what is right and what is wrong. Our vision is not limited to "Because God tells us to."
Thirdly, now that I have had time to read more in the book of Ezekiel, I do not agree that the passage you mentioned talks about Satan. Chapters 26-28 are written as a lament for the city of Tyrus who spoke out against Jerusalem and profited from its destruction, and therefore was doomed to God's wrath. Verses 1-10 of Ezekiel 28 make very clear that God is talking to the king of Tyrus, and that the king of Tyrus is a man, and not a god (as the king seems to think). Therefore the passage is not talking about Satan, but about the king of Tyrus, a man. Because it is included in the Bible and is told to us, it is no doubt meant as a parable for us. Therefore the "cherub that covereth" does not refer to Satan, but is a metaphor for our own squandered worth. "Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God" cannot be taken literally because it refers to Tyrus who was never in Eden. This passage is saying that Tyrus is a man, and that man was in the Garden of Eden. This is another clue that the passage about Tyrus does not just refer to him specifically, but to all of mankind. Therefore, I stand by my interpretation: we have not correctly valued our own worth, and we have squandered our potential, and we are currently being punished for it.
I am really glad that you pointed me to this passage because it allowed me to read the entire lament for Tyrus; it is extremely beautiful. This is one of those times when I really wish I knew how to read ancient greek and hebrew, because these chapters carry many of the elements of the western poetic tradition of the lament. The translators for the King James Version would have been familiar with this tradition. So I am curious to know whether the translators altered the original book of Ezekiel to fit this form or whether the medieval tradition of the lament has its roots in the latin, greek, and hebrew versions of the old testament
Re: A starting point, part 2
anonymous
October 10 2005, 03:22:54 UTC
Okay, this adds another level of reply that I have to have time to make. There is so much for me to say it will shortly become a dissertation. On Ezekiel, check verses 1-10. It is to the "prince of Tyrus." Verses 11-19 are "upon the king of Tyrus." They are two different entities. Plus, "Thine heart was lifted up BECAUSE of thy beauty, thou has corrupted thy wisdom BY REASON of thy brightness" does not imply to me one that is ashamed of (or fails to appreciate or whatever) his beauty/wisdom/etc.. but rather one that became twisted due to being proud of it. "Thine heart was lifted up" is the same phrase (with the exception of the verb tense) that is used to describe the prince who thought of himself as God. That would be a lot of self-worth in my opinion.
Anywho... lots and lots to say. I'll have to arrange my thoughts to be at all coherent. Hopefully I'll make a full post tomorrow.
G, you and I should decide on whether or not we worship (or are talking about) the same God. My God is the God described in the Bible. Are you willing to say the same of yours? If so, I'll address your points one way. If not, I'll address them differently. By the way, my name is Randy. I hope Stan's character witness will help to bring home the point that I really don't want to hurt you. I actually care.
Re: A starting point, part 2
anonymous
October 10 2005, 07:00:11 UTC
You can call me Gypsy.
Yes, I talk to the same God you do. Good grief.
Ya'll can have all the bible debate you want. I cannot contribute to it, though I'll read it as I have time. I'm finishing a definition essay (defining the word "refugee) in MLA, which is due Tuesday. I also have a spanish test on Tuesday I need to study for. I ALSO have my beginning algebra final on Tuesday. If I don't pass it, I can't move on to intermediate for the rest of the semester. So, muy busy.
As for everything else I had the urge to say, I choose to delete those five paragraphs and remain silent, at least for now.
Decisions and choices like that are routed through my heart, and my mind full of experiences, rather than decided coldly based on a set of rules and whether they were followed to the letter. I've forgiven some pretty unworthy-seeming people that I couldn't have otherwise. See, I can say I forgave someone because I'm supposed to, but unless it reaches my heart, it isn't real. If it isn't real, it doesn't count as following the rules, because God knows your heart. Oops.
Am I perfect? Not even close. Am I an expert on any subject? Only on the subject of what I have personally learned, what I have chosen to seek and to embrace, and how my own life has changed. Am I done changing? Do I think I have it all figured out and I'm done learning more? Nope. I just think I need to practice what I've already learned, while slowly adding to my understanding of what God expects of me, and how I'm to accomplish those things. When I'm ready for the next lesson, God himself will let me know. And I've gotten pretty good at understanding when I'm learning something new before it's a five year hindsight. I don't always like the lesson, I don't always like the answer, but there is something key to it all that I get now, that I didn't get back when. That nurturing the Self stuff? Yeah, that. Forgiving myself is at the top of the list. Believing that I am God's child, prone to mistakes but forgiven and loved anyway makes a difference that all the preachers and Bible verses never could. And if a perfect God who is without sin can believe that I'm worthy of forgiveness, that I'm capable of learning and being something so much better, who am I to stubbornly insist I have no worth?
I'm sure you consider it your mission to educate all poor delusional sinners about how they're going to hell if they don't do things the way you do them. Hey, I'm all about spreading the Word, teaching others a better way. But I'd like to remind you, dear, that not everyone arrives at the same place by the exact same route. I have no idea what your life experience is, but the person you are today is a probably a logical result of those experiences. As for me, if you subtract the New Age stuff that absolutely changed my thinking, my life, my everything, then the logical result of my life experiences would definitely be something very different than who I made a personal choice to become. I'd be useless to myself, the world, or God at best. I'd be a lot less than a law abiding citizen or dead from suicide at worst.
Reply
And let's assume that the Bible is perfect. It's still incomprehensible to me. When I ask twenty people to explain ONE PASSAGE's meaning to me, and get fifteen separate answers, I see a problem. I do not understand the book and I do NOT trust the interpretation of Man. Therefore, I do not try to learn from that book, because doing so made things worse for me.
It's like learning Algebra. If you don't understand the instructions and examples in the book, you ask a teacher. If they cannot help you to understand, but instead confuse you further, what do you do? You HAVE to understand, so you find a tutor.
Well, my dear, God Himself is my tutor. He never ever talks smugly over my head. He understands, without my having to explain, exactly what I need in order to understand. He tailors His messages and my practice exercises to ME. He is available day and night whenever I have questions or need. I'd say I'm probably in safer Hands that I would be trusting my salvation to the interpretations of the preacher down the street.
I have one piece of advice for you, because frankly, no one is so learned that they can't be advised or reminded of something they already know.
Before you judge someone, get to know something about them. It's amazing how much your persective can change with some background information and understanding. Or better yet, don't judge them at all. After all, it's AGAINST THE RULES.
Stan:
I apologize for airing my hurt and my anger. I kept silent until I could no longer do so. If I offend, I apologize.
With love,
G.
Reply
Now, as for our interactions: If you think I am claiming to know all about you and to judge you, you mistake my position. I can guess a good bit, yeah. You seem like someone who could do the same. I know Stan has great intuition for people, their motives, their impulses, etc. We used to make a study of eyes. By looking at someones eyes, we could read a lot of things about them. Were we just guessing? Maybe partly. But, based on the responses we got from those we examined, we had learned at least something about reading people in that way. Even that doesn't mean I know you. I've been reacting to your statements. I've looked at the arguments you've made and analyzed them. I know heart-to-head conversions aren't always perfect, so I make sure to say "as I understand it" quite a bit. If I take something you've said out of context, let me know! Tell me what you really meant, and I'll reanalyze.
As far as judging you goes... well, it isn't my place to judge you in the ultimate sense. What I can judge is the accuracy of your arguments from a Biblical perspective. Is that judging you? I don't think so. Hey, if I say things that go against the Bible, I'm wrong. Does that mean I'm damned? No. Can I still learn, or discover mistakes in my understanding? Of course! But, you've admitted, so can you. The truth is, I'm very glad to have this discussion with you. I'd love to get to know more about you. I'd love for you to understand where I'm coming from as well.
I've never in my life "hit it off" so poorly with anyone. Ask Stan. So, this will be a new experience for me. How about this, we practice this whole forgiveness thing we both agree is important (if for different reasons) and start afresh. In a little while, I'll express my point-of-view to you regarding your latest reply. You can then give me your reasons for not believing me or whatever. We'll keep it civil. I promise I won't be making any personal attacks. I may, however, point out errors in your arguments as I see them... please don't mistake those attacks as being personal.
If you are unwilling to talk to me... if I've hurt you too much already, and there is no way that we can have a discussion about anything, let me know. I'll back down from this thread at your request as well. You and Stan can discuss things without me here; and I'll talk to Stan elsewhere.
Reply
Reply
First let me say to G. (is it okay if I use your IRC handle here?), you did not offend me, and I doubt you offended my friend (btw man, can we use either your LJ handle or some other name for you here?). He is my best friend and the godfather of my son. I've known him for 11 years. He is the kindest person I have ever met, and I seriously doubt he was making a personal attack against you. I'm very happy to have the both of you comment on my journal, especially in this discussion.
Alright, the rest of this is in response to the very long and well thought out religious argument offered by my friend.
I want to touch on three things. First, very simply, I think there is a huge difference between pride and self-respect or a knowledge of one's own worth or potential. I refuse to subscribe to any philosophy that doesn't allow for such a distinction. Also, I don't love others because God tells me to. I love others because they are worth loving! Does that make the love I have for the people in my life any less valid? Also, doesn't the fact that the people around us inspire love say something about their worth? Shouldn't we acknowledge that worth?
Secondly, I disagree with your reasoning behind why forgiveness is a good thing. I don't forgive people because I, too, am a sinner or a thief. I forgive people because of what it would do to my own soul if I didn't. Think about the emotional hurt and baggage we would carry around with us if we never forgave people. Think about the kind of people we would become if we carried our grudges with us. (Example: the old Casey.) Much of the Bible gives us instructions on how to make our lives better while we are here on earth, and I think God tells us to forgive people not because we are no better than the people we are forgiving (though that is usually true) but because we doom ourselves to a miserable life if we lose the power to forgive. (I know my own life got easier as soon as I was able to forgive my mother for all the crap she did to me.)
You know, these two points remind me why I have had such a hard time accepting Christianity up to this point. The Bible, as you and so many others interpret it, takes such a negative view of life. "We're all sinners here, and we should follow God's commandments in order to escape eternal damnation." Yes, we are all sinners here, but we are also all stuck here until we die. We should be following God's commandments so we can be the best people we can be and live the best lives we're capable of while we are here on this earth. Man, there are those of us who are less concerned with affirming the correct eternal destination and more concerned with the task of becoming a decent person. I know, I know. Romans 3:10, "There is none righteous, no, not one." I agree with that, but I still want to be the best person that I am CAPABLE of being while I am here. I know that that best is not good enough for God, but for me, it is about fulfilling my potential.
Reply
Thirdly, now that I have had time to read more in the book of Ezekiel, I do not agree that the passage you mentioned talks about Satan. Chapters 26-28 are written as a lament for the city of Tyrus who spoke out against Jerusalem and profited from its destruction, and therefore was doomed to God's wrath. Verses 1-10 of Ezekiel 28 make very clear that God is talking to the king of Tyrus, and that the king of Tyrus is a man, and not a god (as the king seems to think). Therefore the passage is not talking about Satan, but about the king of Tyrus, a man. Because it is included in the Bible and is told to us, it is no doubt meant as a parable for us. Therefore the "cherub that covereth" does not refer to Satan, but is a metaphor for our own squandered worth. "Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God" cannot be taken literally because it refers to Tyrus who was never in Eden. This passage is saying that Tyrus is a man, and that man was in the Garden of Eden. This is another clue that the passage about Tyrus does not just refer to him specifically, but to all of mankind. Therefore, I stand by my interpretation: we have not correctly valued our own worth, and we have squandered our potential, and we are currently being punished for it.
I am really glad that you pointed me to this passage because it allowed me to read the entire lament for Tyrus; it is extremely beautiful. This is one of those times when I really wish I knew how to read ancient greek and hebrew, because these chapters carry many of the elements of the western poetic tradition of the lament. The translators for the King James Version would have been familiar with this tradition. So I am curious to know whether the translators altered the original book of Ezekiel to fit this form or whether the medieval tradition of the lament has its roots in the latin, greek, and hebrew versions of the old testament
Reply
Anywho... lots and lots to say. I'll have to arrange my thoughts to be at all coherent. Hopefully I'll make a full post tomorrow.
G, you and I should decide on whether or not we worship (or are talking about) the same God. My God is the God described in the Bible. Are you willing to say the same of yours? If so, I'll address your points one way. If not, I'll address them differently. By the way, my name is Randy. I hope Stan's character witness will help to bring home the point that I really don't want to hurt you. I actually care.
Reply
Yes, I talk to the same God you do. Good grief.
Ya'll can have all the bible debate you want. I cannot contribute to it, though I'll read it as I have time. I'm finishing a definition essay (defining the word "refugee) in MLA, which is due Tuesday. I also have a spanish test on Tuesday I need to study for. I ALSO have my beginning algebra final on Tuesday. If I don't pass it, I can't move on to intermediate for the rest of the semester. So, muy busy.
As for everything else I had the urge to say, I choose to delete those five paragraphs and remain silent, at least for now.
Reply
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