And then there were none...
is my favourite Agatha Christie book ever. It's psychological thriller themes and closed-off setting are timeless, providing the basis for all kinds of other media- P.D James' The Skull Beneath the Skin (which I didn't like, at all), Mindhunters, Harper's Island etc etc. It's more than the idea that you know the killer, it's the idea that it could
( Read more... )
I still can´t get over the way Dean dealt with Gwen´s death. It seemed so OOC to me, that he would just shrug his shoulders and go on. I expected guilt, even though he was possessed at the time, but still it was HIM in some way, and Dean tends to beat himself up over smaller things, I believe. What you wrote about killing the part of him he despises most makes sense to me, I will have to think about that.
And why didn´t they give Rufus a hunter´s burial?
And why didn´t they bury Gwen and Samuel at all?
Not important, though. But what I would be really interested in: Do you "like" Eve? I have great difficulties with the beautiful actress who is supposed to convey a sense of menace and danger next to her motherly side because she fails. And SPN needs this character to be a strong opponent, no?! I admire that you are able to look past the actress and analyze the character. O please, go on writing metas. I guess I need you to tell me what to see. ;-)
Reply
I too was a little unnerved by Dean's apparent content with killing Gwen, however it could be down to two things- one is that he really didn't know Gwen, and he wouldn't be affected by her death in the same way that he would if it was say, Bobby, or even Rufus. However, this doesn't account for his complete lack of empathy towards it. What does, was that he simply doesn't remember. He has literally nothing to connect himself to the action- no flashback, no memory, no blood on his hands. It's a little bit of a thin arguement, but he really was distanced from the act itself. It's a little bit like Sam and his soulless days, who knows that he did some very bad stuff, but is distanced from what he did- he simply doesn't know. But while Sam broods (and when he finds out, he broods some more [god bless you, Sammy]) Dean uses hunting to distract himself from his emotions. Sam mentions he did this in Family Remains, and it's shown in Everybody Loves A Clown and all other kinds of situations- Dean will choose the emotionless task of hunting in order to distract himself from the things that are bothering him. And in this episode, their situation required all of their focus and skill. Dean allowed the fact that they were all in danger to help remove himself from dwellig on the fact that he killed what was essentially, an innocent.
Does that make sense? That's how I see it anyway.
With Rufus' burial, Dean does mention that he didn't realise Rufus was so religious- thus they didn't burn him- unless they did and just buried his ashes, or at least salted the grave site. You raise an intriguing point. I suppose it was simply Rufus' wishes that he not be put on a pyre.
And I would imagine that they would have disposed of Samuel and Gwen accordingly. So far, we've seen the hunter's burial in very respectful situations- like John's death, and Ellen and Jo's photograph memorial. The writers seem to be reserving the burials and memorials for characters that are considered family (which is what Show is all about, of course, and is thus understandable) of which Samuel and Gwen are not considered part of. Which is the tragedy of Gwen, certainly, but there's no love lost on Samuel's side. In the grand scheme of things, giving Samuel and Gwen onscreen hunter's farewells just isn't important. But they could have mentioned something in that last scene about them.
I'm still a bit reserved on Eve. I think it's still very early on and we haven't seen much of her and what she can do. As a character idea, I think she's brilliant, but I can see why you'd think she's not a strong character. I think it needs a bit more time before we write her off as a fail in characterisation though, mainly because even though we haven't scene her menacing and dangerous (as would be required of a villain) we have seen her as a cold character, with an underlying thread of anger.
See, with Lucifer, we heard about him from early season 4, and spent the whole season in anticipation of his arrival. And we were told time and time again: he would bring the destruction of heaven and earth, he is a ferocious creature, etc etc. But when he did show up, all we got was this quiet, calm creature. We got a glimpse of horrifying and formidable he truly was in Hammer of the Gods when he ripped everybody apart in the hallways, but even in The End he was still incongruous with his rumours.
Reply
Eve on the other hand, was sprung upon us very suddenly. Even with the monsters all acting strangely and the lead up with the Alphas and Alpha!vamp's comment on the Mother, she still arrived with very little lead up. And while a villain should certainly be menacing and dangerous, we haven't really heard anything about the Mother being that. Instead, we've got this creature who we know for sure is extremely powerful, very pissed off, and is not rushing headlong into things. She's being careful and calculated, which is menacing in it's own way. Without meaning to sound stereotypical, it is men who tend to be aggressive, while women tend to be passive-aggressive. What can be said, is that she's definitely creepy. Or at least, I found that truck scene a little creepy.
So basically all that means is- give it time. It's possible she still will fail, the writer's don't exactly have the best track record with good female characters, but we've seen so little of the Mother so far that I'm hesitant to pass judgement on her as of yet.
:D
Reply
You are GREAT. Thank you so much for taking the time to write such a wonderful answer!
I’ll stick with the second option you offered as to why Dean lacked emotions after killing his cousin- there was work to be done, and Dean is always one to do what has to be done. That’s what I love about him- he can be really cruel in that sense, but it is out of necessity. And when it all is done, his feelings burst out in- what did he say?- sudden flashes of anger and alcohol abuse… I wouldn’t love Dean so much if he was just too stupid to care. He knows exactly what he does (and sometimes even why he does it :-)), and he always takes on the responsibility. So maybe even if he can’t relate to shooting Gwen, it will stick with him in some way and come out later in some typical Dean-manner.
And maybe that makes Dean the (slightly!) better hunter- he can be cruel in ways that Sam only can be without his soul. And I will always ask myself why I chose Dean over Sam because Sam is so much more easy to access, he is heartfelt and caring and makes people feel at ease. Hm. Opposites attract?!
I like the idea of Rufus´ last wish being a “normal” burial. Their lives are anything but, and to have such a closure is like a triumph- he couldn´t choose the way he died, but he sure can decide where and how he rests. Small victory, but maybe some sort of consolation for those he left behind. And did you notice the irony in revealing Rufus being a believer? It dawned to me only later that the most hilarious part of this episode had been a Jew hunting demons in the name of Jesus Christ. That is so SPN! I love them for that. You can use rituals without believe. Great. You maybe know this since you seem to know some things about religion, too: In the bible there is a story of a man who watches Jesus and his disciples exorcise a demon. He doesn´t believe in Jesus, but finds the ritual charming and demons suck, so next time he encounters a demon he tries to exorcise the thing in the name of Jesus. The demon only looks at him and asks interestedly: “Dude, I know Jesus, but who the hell are YOU?!”
And now I find myself surprised to write this, but… I have to take up the cudgels for Samuel. I still don’t know what it was that brought him back (or was it already said and I just forgot about it? Was it Crowley?) and for what purpose (to hunt Alphas?), that sort of annoys me, but that isn´t Samuel’s fault. He once said that he did all this evil because he wanted his daughter back. He loved her so much his sense of what is right and what is wrong got totally twisted, and he lost it, but basically I understand how love and despair from losing someone can drive a person to extreme measures that border madness. And what could be worse for a father than to lose his daughter? Don’t get me wrong, I don’t have much sympathies for Samuel, it’s just that I don’t feel like he’s far away from what drives our boys…
What you wrote about Eve makes perfect sense and I´m more than happy to give her a chance. Just let me add my five cents to the Lucifer-thing: Apart from him being the Enemy No. 1 in Christianity, the actor was utterly creepy, at least as far as I’m concerned! He was introduced as this psychologically instable man, he was so sad and so lost, and I was afraid for him. And then he became Lucifer- and I was so upset! His eyes were void of human feelings, there was infinite cold, and I was afraid OF him. His voice sounded menacing, and I felt he had the power to do really bad things with global repercussions. He didn´t convince me by doing bad things but by conveying the impression he would be perfectly capable of doing them- without regret, in cold blood. That was more creepy than the deeds themselves. But maybe Eve can grow into that, we´ll see! (And since I like my show I want the best for her :-).)
Reply
Reply
He knows exactly what he does (and sometimes even why he does it... And maybe that makes Dean the (slightly!) better hunter
I would certainly agree, to a extent. Dean lernt from a very early age to sacrifice things for his family, and part of doing that is the need to turn off his emotions for the good of the job. I honestly don't believe he perceives emotions as a weakness (like he appears to every time he mocks Sam for his chick flick moments), I think he jut believes there is a time and a place for all the heartfelt stuff, and it's not in the middle of hunting. He needs to not be distracted by his emotions or he runs the risk of missing something, and it could mean life or death for Sam (or anyone else he's hunting with/cares about).
Sam, on the otherhand, is much more open with his feelings, and this is probably because he's alwas had Dean there to look out for him- Sam's never needed to harden up and sacrifice in the way that Dean has. And it's this that lets him down as a hunter. In the earlier seasons, Dean was always in front, taking point and keeping Sam as safe as he could- unless Sam hunted a lttle by himself, he didn't develop his skills to the same degree that dean would have. Note that when Dean went to hell, and Sam started training with Ruby, he was only able to become a hunter when he shut off the emotional part of himself.
Also, while he provides a valuable point of reasoning and morals to counter Dean's shoot-first-questions-later approach (though not so much in recent seasons) Sam doesn't see hunting in the way that Dean does. Even though he no longer sees it a a chore, I don't believe he sees it as his life. While I do think he's given up on Standford and normality, hunting is the way that he can be with his brother, who is his life, and he knows he's good at hunting, so he's content to stay in the life.
But it is Sam's soul that makes all the difference. Knowing how he hunted at the beginning of season six was downright formidable and scary. Makes you wonder what Dean would be like without a soul. *shivers*
I think it was Crowley that brought Samuel back, in order to collect the Alphas. And no, I don't blame him for that, or for turning over the boys to Crowley (as much as I didn't like the fact he did it). However, I can't see that as an excuse for everything. Neither do I see Mary as an excuse. I don't doubt that Samuel probably loves and misses her, and is probably willing to get her back- but there's something about the way he used Mary's name that made me think he was using it to be manipulative. And it's happened a couple of times now, where he's mentioned Mary. And besides, Sam and Dean are the last traces of Mary on Earth. I would imagine that if he truly loved her so much that he would work for a demon in an attempt to get her back, that he'd be a little more willing to build some kind of relationship with the boys. But he doesn't. Instead he brings her up every time he wants Dean (and Sam) to back off and drop the questions. Like the mere mention of her name is enough to say "hey, I'm family" and the Winchesters will go "well, okay then, because family is most important!". But, as Dean points out, family is earned. The only person who breaks this rule is Sam (and for good reason!).
And maybe it's got to do with wherever he was before Crowley brought him back. When Dean made the deal for Sam, the demon asked him if he was sure that it was Sam that was brought back (and lets be honest, Sam hardened up a little after he came back), and we saw how Hell destroyed Dean when he came back from it- Crowley called himself the king of Hell, so surely that's where Samuel was residing. Maybe Hell darkened him in the same kind of way.
He didn´t convince me by doing bad things but by conveying the impression he would be perfectly capable of doing them- without regret, in cold blood.
I totally agree with this about Lucifer, and it's what I was trying to get at before. There was this calmness to him that was so opposite to what we knew he was capable of. And part of what we knew he was capable of was the word of mouth of "Lucifer's so terrible". But we haven't had a chance to have that with Eve, so yes, let's wait and see :)
Reply
But anyway.
but I would like to hear what you think about Dean being broken? Is he? And what does that mean to you?
I think he was, but he isn't anymore. I think, and this is particularly concerned with season five and My Bloody Valentine and so on, that he felt like he was at the end of everything. He's lost his mother, lost his father, lost his brother, been to Hell, he's socially isolated and never saw himself as anything important (which can be attributed to many things, but mainly, I believe, his life as a hunter, because it requires him to be in the background, and he can't get the kind of social validation and sense of being needed that humans strive for) and here he is suddenly pulled from Hell on the orders of God, and they've told him that he's going to win the apocalypse. The angels told him that Sam, the only person who ever saw Dean as something more, and the only person to love him unconditionally (with I suppose, the exception of John)- that Sam is public enemy number one and needs to be left behind. Dean says it himself in season two- his most important job is to keep Sam safe.
I think by the time My Blood Valentine rolled around, Dean was tired and depressed. He broke the first seal and started the apocalypse, he's having trouble building his relationship with Sam back up, Michael and the rest of heaven are after him, the deadline of Detroit is coming closer (where he'd lose Sam)and he's only one little human. But I don't believe that he was dead inside, as Famine suggested. I think he believed he was dead inside. The fact that he kept fighting says it all. He knows that if he tries to kill himself, the angels will just bring him back, but he didn't take himself out of the game. He kept fighting, alongside his brother, and hoping that he could fix things with Sam. I think by that stage, he gave up on the apocalypse, gave up on everything but the chance to make peace with Sam before he loses him to Lucifer. And I think this is why Famine couldn't touch him. Dean honestly didn't care about anything else. And what he did care about, he cared about so strongly it was immune to Famine. Also, it's a bit of an abstract concept, and I'm not sure that Famine could touch something like that, not like he could feed off Sam's addiction or the sexual gratifcation of the couple at the beginning of the episode. So Famine used the "dead" line in an attempt to mess with Dean, get inside his head and stir up all those thoughts and keep Dean occupied by wallowing in his own misery. Because at that point, with no drive to distract Dean with, Dean was the only person in the room who could attack Famine. Yes, I think Famine was referring to real feelings (or no feelings) that Dean had, but no, I don't believe Dean was "dead" in the way that Famine was saying.
Reply
And furthermore, I think his time with Lisa and Ben helped that continue. Being in a situation where he was important for the little reasons and being loved without needing to prove himself allowed him to build back some of that confidence and self-worth that he lost. Lisa and Ben didn't require anything more than he be there for them. relationship like that is one of the basic needs in human survival. I agree that he didn't heal completely, and unless he has a life like he did with Lisa AND has Sam and hunting, he'll never be a complete and psycologically satisfied person. But he did become stronger, not just emotionally from the trauma that was the apocalypse, but stronger in general. He was ready to go back to the isolation of the hunting world, because he knows now that there's more to life (and more to his life) than what he had before. He's learnt how to take loss and work with it, keep going despite it, whereas before it consumed him and taunted his sense of self worth and importance.
And finally, I think he missed hunting. It's the one thing he knows he can do, and it's all he's had in his life. His father, his brother, the hunt. Everything else came and went, including Lisa and Ben. Yes, he does use it to escape things, but I don't think that's why he went back to it. After all, he did tell Sam at the beginning of season six that he didn't want to hunt anymore because he liked the life he had with Lisa and Ben. If he was running from that, we never would have seen them past episode one. But I think he likes the adrenaline. And besides, we know he's smart, so the challenge grabs his attention- how to approach it, which strategies to use. And regardless of his lack of self worth, there's still a pride achieved at the end of a successful hunt, knowing you've saved lives and are acting as the protectors of humanity. Even if Dean feels that's all he has to define himself by (that and Sam), it's a pretty powerful definition.
Reply
I am very, very thankful; you helped me a lot here, though you don't even know me. That much I can tell you already. :-) So just... THANK YOU.
Reply
Please, take all the time you need, there's absolutely no rush. I'm grateful I could help. :)
Reply
Leave a comment