Oh hell, now you've gotten me started :)hecksheriMay 30 2006, 22:15:47 UTC
You have one up on me at least. I am a terrible speller. I do tend to write in complete sentences and I at least have the good sense to proofread and spellcheck papers before I turn them in to have them graded. I understand that students make mistakes, get caught in deadlines, get stuck in the trials of life, etc. Hell, I have been through almost every bad thing that can happen to a student with a paper due. When I talk about students, a) I never mention names and b) I am doing so because it is so bad out there that you cannot reasonably expect literacy from a graduate of a "good" four year college and that is a problem that needs to be talked about long and loud by a lot more people than are talking about it. They don't just pass people through chemistry unless they can do chemistry, so why should it be any different for english. The system is completely broken. I don't know how the students are making it through their english classes without gaining more skill than they demonstrate in their subsequent science classes. I am constantly amazed at the things people write for all kinds of writing assignments at all levels of higher education. There are good papers to be sure, but most of them look like they were written by third graders. I have, no shit, gotten a five page run on sentence with "and like" used to seperate "sentences" instead of periods...from a senior in education. I once got one with the word "like" in almost every "sentence"...for a scientific research paper on fetal development. This student also used the word "fetal" as a noun instead of "fetus" throughout the paper. ex: "At like 8 weeks, the fetal has developed arms and legs that you can like see but the fetal is still legal for you to get aborted." Where do you start when you grade a paper like this? If you take points off for grammatical issues, how many can you take off for that sentence? Do you take one off for every use of the word "fetal" as a noun even though it was done more than 100 times in the paper? Do you only take one off? Do you point out the obvious-- that they obviously did no research whatsoever or they would have known the right word, even though it would be impossible to prove? Do you take off repeatedly for improper use of the word "like" since they obviously went through and added it many times in every sentence in order to make the required paper length? Do you just pour a big glass of red wine, listen to relaxing music, and try not to cry while you grade the papers? There is a serious serious serious literacy problem in the US and no one seems to want to talk about it to the point that most teachers just find that it is easier to just pass their students through life than to face the problem head on. I think that in order to get a degree from any college that one should have to pass an english course in which 100 percent of the grade comes from in class writing assignments. The students should be required to present picture ID in order to get the test booklet and in order to turn it in. The booklets should have no name...just a student number on them. They should be graded by a team of graders who have someone checking behind them. It seems extreme, but the english teachers I talk to say that they believe that more than half of the papers they grade are not written by the student him/herself and that in class assignments make up a small enough portion of the grade that students squeak by without having to learn to write.
Re: Oh hell, now you've gotten me started :)herbpixieMay 31 2006, 12:38:42 UTC
They don't just pass people through chemistry unless they can do chemistry, so why should it be any different for english.
Thank you. I work with a lot of scientists who think that English classes are not important. I just proofread a paper that was written by one of our doctors, and the grammar was atrocious. Every other sentence was a fragment. She also didn't bother to put articles in front of her nouns. I was astounded.
We also have a client who has a doctorate in English. She asked one of the techs to call her "Doctor ___" instead of "Mrs. ___." When our practice manager learned that her degree was in English, she rolled her eyes and said, "Oh. So she's not really a doctor." The tech agreed. Um, I'm sorry, but if it were that damn easy to get a doctorate in English, then everyone would have excellent grammar.
The practice owner (Dr. Michelle) has said on several occasions that she doesn't think English is an important school subject. Both of her daughters have trouble in English.
It's wonderful to hear a scientist say that English is important. It was my first major. I'd go back to it if I could do anything other than teach after obtaining my degree. I love to write. I love literature. It breaks my heart that my talent lies in an area that is considered frivolous. It makes me angry that people think that the language they speak is unimportant. How can you hope to communicate effectively with another human being if neither of you can explain the subtleties of your ideas or emotions?
That doesn't mean that I think everyone should be good at grammar or love to read. Hell, I've been out of school and out of practice for so long that my grammar has become terrible. But to hear people say that it's not important really breaks my heart.
Re: Oh hell, now you've gotten me started :)hecksheriMay 31 2006, 14:42:16 UTC
I guess vets don't have to write theses and dissertations to get doctorates, otherwise their grammar skills would have gotten beaten into shape whether they liked it or not. Most of the the scientists that are in the business of researching and publishing their work are sticklers on grammar. If they aren't, they have to hire readers to fix their papers or they won't have a hope of publishing. Neil got his MS in mass communications and does radio, television, reporting and PR work now. One of the reasons that his boss stuck with him after his internship...for ten years now..is that he writes very well and that is something that is damn near impossible to find. After the tenth resume that states, "I write good", I bet a grammar-skilled HR person wants to jump out of the nearest window.
Re: Oh hell, now you've gotten me started :)herbpixieMay 31 2006, 18:22:05 UTC
Computer Science. I'm thinking about going into software engineering specifically, but I've not made a firm decision. Unfortunately, I'm starting fresh. I have no formal computer education at all, but I think I have a mild talent in that area. And every freaking standardized test I've ever taken tells me that I should be an engineer. It's neither my first love nor my greatest talent, but at least we won't be broke anymore.
Re: Oh hell, now you've gotten me started :)hecksheriMay 31 2006, 14:50:46 UTC
Oh, and English doctorates are among the absolute most retardedly difficult degrees to get. You can't get one unless you have a talent and a love for the subject. Think about the fact that a thesis or dissertation must add to the body of existing knowledge. I wouldn't even know where to start. Gads, and talk about the research and digging you would have to do...the roots of language are very obscure, and what literature hasn't already been analyzed to death.
OK, enough of that...stepping off of soapbox
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Thank you. I work with a lot of scientists who think that English classes are not important. I just proofread a paper that was written by one of our doctors, and the grammar was atrocious. Every other sentence was a fragment. She also didn't bother to put articles in front of her nouns. I was astounded.
We also have a client who has a doctorate in English. She asked one of the techs to call her "Doctor ___" instead of "Mrs. ___." When our practice manager learned that her degree was in English, she rolled her eyes and said, "Oh. So she's not really a doctor." The tech agreed. Um, I'm sorry, but if it were that damn easy to get a doctorate in English, then everyone would have excellent grammar.
The practice owner (Dr. Michelle) has said on several occasions that she doesn't think English is an important school subject. Both of her daughters have trouble in English.
It's wonderful to hear a scientist say that English is important. It was my first major. I'd go back to it if I could do anything other than teach after obtaining my degree. I love to write. I love literature. It breaks my heart that my talent lies in an area that is considered frivolous. It makes me angry that people think that the language they speak is unimportant. How can you hope to communicate effectively with another human being if neither of you can explain the subtleties of your ideas or emotions?
That doesn't mean that I think everyone should be good at grammar or love to read. Hell, I've been out of school and out of practice for so long that my grammar has become terrible. But to hear people say that it's not important really breaks my heart.
:::steps off your soapbox, too:::
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What are you going to major in?
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