I think this is a fascinating moment for Lee, and it's awesome that we got to see it so early on, and that its aftermath lingered so long throughout the show.
There are so many things I enjoy about this scene:
1) I really like the fact that Lee disobeys orders at first, trying to give the civilian pilots every possible chance to comply with the order to halt. They've been ordered to keep radio silence for fear of Cylon viruses, but when the ship doesn't respond to Athena's blinking-light code, Lee decides to break radio silence on his own authority to make sure that the civilians know they are being ordered to stop. That was absolutely the right choice; it put himself and his own pilots at risk and involved the violation of a direct order, but he had to be sure that the ship's non-compliance was not the result of miscommunication. He goes through every possible warning, from semiphore to voice commands to Starbuck's warning shot, before he resigns himself to the fact that whoever is in control of that ship is not going to yield.
2) I love that he flies up to look through the windows, and tortures himself with his gun camera footage on endless enhanced replay afterwards. He wants to know what he's doing.
3) I love that Kara is the one who more strenuously objects, but then fires in solidarity. It took me by surprise, and it's awesome. It told me so much about who she was.
4) I love that Lee quietly rejects his father's effort to excuse him from responsibility. He doesn't believe in the "I was just following orders" idea -- the chain of command doesn't exempt individual soldiers from the responsibility to evaluate their actions in light of their own moral judgment.
5) Finally, I find it interesting that this incident haunted Lee for years, whereas his actions in the miniseries when he urged Roslin to jump away and leave behind the civilians in sublight ships are never referred to again. He left behind thousands of civilians in the miniseries, many more than were on the Olympic Carrier, and he knew for certain what he was doing; he heard them screaming in those last seconds when the Cylon raiders jumped into their midst. Whereas it was always unclear whether there were actual passengers still on the Olympic Carrier. Yet, to him, there was a moral difference between leaving behind people who could not be saved, and actually killing them himself. I think every single soldier from the Admiral on down had to live with the necessity of leaving innocent people behind -- they left the colonies behind, they failed to protect almost the entirety of the human race. But failing to protect them wasn't the same as murdering them. But if there were people on the Olympic Carrier, then it was Lee who killed them, not the Cylons, and I think it's interesting how viscerally that affected his conscience.
5) Finally, I find it interesting that this incident haunted Lee for years, whereas his actions in the miniseries when he urged Roslin to jump away and leave behind the civilians in sublight ships are never referred to again. He left behind thousands of civilians in the miniseries, many more than were on the Olympic Carrier, and he knew for certain what he was doing; he heard them screaming in those last seconds when the Cylon raiders jumped into their midst. Whereas it was always unclear whether there were actual passengers still on the Olympic Carrier. Yet, to him, there was a moral difference between leaving behind people who could not be saved, and actually killing them himself. I think every single soldier from the Admiral on down had to live with the necessity of leaving innocent people behind -- they left the colonies behind, they failed to protect almost the entirety of the human race. But failing to protect them wasn't the same as murdering them. But if there were people on the Olympic Carrier, then it was Lee who killed them, not the Cylons, and I think it's interesting how viscerally that affected his conscience.
It might also be easier for Lee to live with leaving the civilian ship in the mini-series because there wasn't a whole lot else that could be done. The Olympic Carrier seemed more a choice, and at no one knew if destroying it was going to stop the cylons, which would leave more linger questions and memories from the event.
Well, I think in the miniseries the decision to leave behind the sublight ships without waiting long enough to transfer their passengers onto FTL ships was presented as a pretty tough choice that had to be made. The pilot of Colonial One (and Doral, being his usual trouble-making self) argued strongly that they shouldn't leave until they had gotten all the civilians on board jump-ready ships. Lee said they couldn't risk waiting long enough to rescue those civilians, because if the Cylons came back while they were in the middle of rescue efforts then everyone would die. He basically said they had to cut their losses, and they couldn't afford to risk the majority of the fleet in order to save the minority. Roslin, perhaps having learned something from the last argument she had with Lee on the same subject, agreed this time to jump away immediately. But it was a tough choice, and no one was really sure how quickly the Cylons would come back, or whether they might have had time to save some more people if they'd tried.
For this reason, I think it actually turned out to be a blessing in disguise that the Cylons started their attack in the last seconds before the fleet jumped away. It was horrible to have to listen to the people that they were leaving to their deaths, but at least it proved that Lee's advice had been right, and that if they had waited and tried to save more people then they all would have been killed. So I think you're absolutely right that the aftermath was less painful because there was a lot less uncertainty about whether that decision had been the right one. It clearly was.
But of course, after the destruction of the Olympic Carrier, the Cylons stopped finding them every 33 minutes. Shouldn't that outcome have removed a lot of the uncertainty about whether Lee had done the right thing? Yet he still felt tormented about it. I think a lot of that had to do with his guilt over actively killing the civilians in question.
I wonder too how Lee was effected not just by the active role in killing but the active role in the decision. In leaving the sublight ships behind was an active participant in the choice, while the Olympic Carrier was an order. Being ordered to do the killing seems very different than being part of a decision that gets people killed by te enemy.
Yes, I think that's a very interesting distinction to explore. I actually think that Lee considered himself to be an active participant in both decisions. He obviously was active in the miniseries choice, but even when he received the Olympic Carrier order, he had to decide whether or not obeying it was the right thing to do. I think his last scene in the episode is very revealing, where his father says "I gave the order. It's my responsibility," and Lee answers, "I pulled the trigger. That's mine."
In other words, I think Lee feels that he is responsible for his actions, even actions he takes under orders. If he can't live with those actions, then he either disobeys orders (like when he mutinies to try to prevent the coup at the end of Season One), or he tries to argue the higher authorities into changing their minds (like when he questions his father about the Cain assassination order in "Resurrection Ship").
I think in the case of the Olympic Carrier, he decided that following orders was necessary, because the ship really was a danger to the fleet. But he found it hard to live with. I wonder whether Kara would have made the same choice if she'd been in command of the mission? She certainly seemed ready to defy orders until she saw Lee open fire. At that point, the ship was going to blow up anyway, so she decided not to leave the dirty work to Lee alone. But if she'd been the senior pilot in that situation, I don't know whether she would ever have opened fire.
In other words, I think Lee feels that he is responsible for his actions, even actions he takes under orders. If he can't live with those actions, then he either disobeys orders (like when he mutinies to try to prevent the coup at the end of Season One), or he tries to argue the higher authorities into changing their minds (like when he questions his father about the Cain assassination order in "Resurrection Ship").
I agree that Lee takes responsibility for his actions even if they're orders, but I wonder if the Olympic Carrier wasn't the first time he ever truly questioned an order. Making it easier later for him to mutiny and question the assassination of Cain.
I wonder whether Kara would have made the same choice if she'd been in command of the mission? She certainly seemed ready to defy orders until she saw Lee open fire. At that point, the ship was going to blow up anyway, so she decided not to leave the dirty work to Lee alone. But if she'd been the senior pilot in that situation, I don't know whether she would ever have opened fire.
This is a great question. It's easier for Kara to question and disobey orders so it's entirely possible that she would haven't fired a all. I will have to try to do more thinking about this since I don't have a great answer at this time.
I agree that Lee takes responsibility for his actions even if they're orders, but I wonder if the Olympic Carrier wasn't the first time he ever truly questioned an order. Making it easier later for him to mutiny and question the assassination of Cain.
I think this is a very plausible idea, and probably helps explain the huge emotional impact this incident had on him. I think Lee always had a questioning side to his character, and was always capable of standing up to authority figures like his father, but having to make a decision like this one is a far cry from reading banned books in school and the other small ways he used to question authority. I think that the Olympic Carrier definitely became a symbol in Lee's mind of the need to question military decisions, both his own and his commanding officers'.
Thanks for chatting with me, by the way, I'm enjoying your thoughts very much!
Not only did Lee always have to ability to stand up to authority figures, he really wanted to do rebel, but he didn't really have reason to go beyond quiet acts like banned books, etc.
Thank you for providing an excuse not to fold laundry. I have really enjoyed this too.
I've been reading your conversation with kdbleu and I can't help but butt in.So here are my thoughts.
As for the differences in the way he reacted to leaving ships behind on the mini and to actually destroying the OC, I have to agree with Kdbleu in that in the mini there was nothing else they could have done. You pointed out that he said they needed to cut their losses and couldn't risk the safety of the other ships by continuing to transfer passengers and that it actually turned out to be a blessing in disguise that the Cylons started their attack in the last seconds before the fleet jumped away. I think the decision to leave was the only rational, reasonable one at the time and the fact that the cylons started attacking just as they were jumping was not a "blessing in disguise" at all. They had been transfering passengers but Boomer had just spotted a cylons raider which had jumped in the middle of the gathered ships, scanned the area and jumped away with the information on the location of those ships. As a military officer, Lee knew it was a matter of minutes before the cylons returned in great numbers after having located so many survivors. The captain's suggestion that they continue the transfers till the cylons actually arrived was based on emotion and wishful thinking and not on reason. As for Doral, knowing that he was really a cylon, he obviously wanted them to stay so that the cylons could destroy more ships. Thankfully the president had already come to her senses after the close call they had had before. In fact, her decision to stay with the ships they had found and not jump when the cylons found them before was also not logical and reasonable at all. They had no weapons and could not defend themselves nor anybody else. They only survived because of sheer luck (or fate - heehee). I believe Lee only obeyed that order because he had already seen the equipement from Galactica and he quickly formed an alternative strategy that had at least some chance of working. But there was no other strategy available to them when the cylons found them again. As it was, they were lucky to have had enough time to jump themselves.
Having said that, I totally agree with you that there was a moral difference between leaving behind people who could not be saved, and actually killing them himself. This is one of the reasons the OC affected him so much. Also, I find it really interesting that when he tried to talk to Adama about it, his father gave him a speech about how soldiers/leaders don't second guess their decision, they live with them and move on. I think this weighed heavily on Lee. He of course believed that you have to live with the consequences of your decisions but whereas his father seemed to consider that second guessing was a weakness, something that might make you flinch when you should be acting, Lee believed they should always second guess their decisions because they needed to learn from them.
I liked that he tried to be really sure there was no alternative before actually shooting. And the fact that the cylons stopped coming after the ship was destroyed should have been evidence enough that the decision was a sound one. The fact that it bothered him anyway, to me, is a testament to his character and his sensitivity, more than anything else.
What I really, absolutely loved about the whole thing was his final talk with Adama. As you put it : Lee quietly rejects his father's effort to excuse him from responsibility. He doesn't believe in the "I was just following orders" idea -- the chain of command doesn't exempt individual soldiers from the responsibility to evaluate their actions in light of their own moral judgment. This. This is one the reasons I love Lee so much. At the end of the day, we are always responsible for the choices we make. It is easy to hide behind hierarchy or society or anything else. I think Adama was privately proud of Lee's reaction, although he was pained that he couldn't make his son feel better. They were still tiptoeing around each other. And getting to know each other.
This is one the reasons I love Lee so much. At the end of the day, we are always responsible for the choices we make. It is easy to hide behind hierarchy or society or anything else.
Yeah, there is balance, sure. Of course. Most certainly, yeah, right. And it is not swayed by his looks, his eyes, arms, smile, hip dents or anything. Always a perfect balance. I'm sure you know what I mean. ;)
Hello! So glad to hear your analysis. You may well be right that the OC was more of a tough call than the sublight ships in the miniseries, but I'll play devil's advocate on that, anyway :)
As a military officer, Lee knew it was a matter of minutes before the cylons returned in great numbers after having located so many survivors. The captain's suggestion that they continue the transfers till the cylons actually arrived was based on emotion and wishful thinking and not on reason.
Well, I agree that Lee's assumption that they only had minutes before the Cylons returned was a reasonable one, and the only responsible one to make. But I'm not sure his military training or anyone else's really could have given him grounds for certainty about that. I think one of the points of the miniseries (and early Season One) was that no one in the military had a good idea of what the Cylons' capabilities were. How long would it take a Raider recon mission to return with an attacking force -- how could anyone be sure? Lee didn't know much about Cylon capabilities -- he didn't know that his Viper's antiquated systems were his best protection, and he says that his electromagnetic pulse idea was a desperate gamble, one that had failed in every military training simulation he had worked on in college. He had no reasonable grounds to expect its success, either.
I guess I'm just saying that I don't think his military training could have given him much concrete, trustworthy information about Cylon capabilities, and that he couldn't really be sure whether they could expect a Cylon assault in five minutes or thirty-three minutes or when exactly from the moment that recon ship jumped away. And given that thousands of lives were at stake, I think some decision-makers would have decided to risk staying a few extra minutes if it looked like they could rescue more people that way. I think Roslin seriously considered staying, and if she hadn't already almost gotten them all killed earlier making this very mistake, she might not have been able to accept Lee's advice here. And I'm not confident that Lee would have defied her authority if she made the wrong choice here -- he might have, but he might not have. He certainly addressed her in this crisis as if it were her choice to make, and he had obeyed her before, even though he thought the magnetic pulse plan was a pretty long shot. His military training should have convinced him that the only reasonable option was to jump the ship away then, too, but he deferred to the President.
None of this contradicts your material point, which is that Lee was thinking rationally and he saw no rational alternative to his choice. I think you're right. But I also think that if the whole fleet had jumped away and left all those people to be killed and *never known* how long it actually took the Cylons to show up and attack, that decision probably would have weighed on Lee's mind more than it did, because it would have carried elements of doubt and uncertainty. That's the only sense in which I thought the Cylon's arrival was a 'blessing in disguise' -- obviously it was horrible for everyone involved, but at least Lee and the other survivors didn't have to spend their nights wondering whether they might have had time to save a few hundred or a few thousand more people if they'd waited a little longer before jumping away.
There are so many things I enjoy about this scene:
1) I really like the fact that Lee disobeys orders at first, trying to give the civilian pilots every possible chance to comply with the order to halt. They've been ordered to keep radio silence for fear of Cylon viruses, but when the ship doesn't respond to Athena's blinking-light code, Lee decides to break radio silence on his own authority to make sure that the civilians know they are being ordered to stop. That was absolutely the right choice; it put himself and his own pilots at risk and involved the violation of a direct order, but he had to be sure that the ship's non-compliance was not the result of miscommunication. He goes through every possible warning, from semiphore to voice commands to Starbuck's warning shot, before he resigns himself to the fact that whoever is in control of that ship is not going to yield.
2) I love that he flies up to look through the windows, and tortures himself with his gun camera footage on endless enhanced replay afterwards. He wants to know what he's doing.
3) I love that Kara is the one who more strenuously objects, but then fires in solidarity. It took me by surprise, and it's awesome. It told me so much about who she was.
4) I love that Lee quietly rejects his father's effort to excuse him from responsibility. He doesn't believe in the "I was just following orders" idea -- the chain of command doesn't exempt individual soldiers from the responsibility to evaluate their actions in light of their own moral judgment.
5) Finally, I find it interesting that this incident haunted Lee for years, whereas his actions in the miniseries when he urged Roslin to jump away and leave behind the civilians in sublight ships are never referred to again. He left behind thousands of civilians in the miniseries, many more than were on the Olympic Carrier, and he knew for certain what he was doing; he heard them screaming in those last seconds when the Cylon raiders jumped into their midst. Whereas it was always unclear whether there were actual passengers still on the Olympic Carrier. Yet, to him, there was a moral difference between leaving behind people who could not be saved, and actually killing them himself. I think every single soldier from the Admiral on down had to live with the necessity of leaving innocent people behind -- they left the colonies behind, they failed to protect almost the entirety of the human race. But failing to protect them wasn't the same as murdering them. But if there were people on the Olympic Carrier, then it was Lee who killed them, not the Cylons, and I think it's interesting how viscerally that affected his conscience.
Reply
It might also be easier for Lee to live with leaving the civilian ship in the mini-series because there wasn't a whole lot else that could be done. The Olympic Carrier seemed more a choice, and at no one knew if destroying it was going to stop the cylons, which would leave more linger questions and memories from the event.
Reply
For this reason, I think it actually turned out to be a blessing in disguise that the Cylons started their attack in the last seconds before the fleet jumped away. It was horrible to have to listen to the people that they were leaving to their deaths, but at least it proved that Lee's advice had been right, and that if they had waited and tried to save more people then they all would have been killed. So I think you're absolutely right that the aftermath was less painful because there was a lot less uncertainty about whether that decision had been the right one. It clearly was.
But of course, after the destruction of the Olympic Carrier, the Cylons stopped finding them every 33 minutes. Shouldn't that outcome have removed a lot of the uncertainty about whether Lee had done the right thing? Yet he still felt tormented about it. I think a lot of that had to do with his guilt over actively killing the civilians in question.
Reply
Reply
In other words, I think Lee feels that he is responsible for his actions, even actions he takes under orders. If he can't live with those actions, then he either disobeys orders (like when he mutinies to try to prevent the coup at the end of Season One), or he tries to argue the higher authorities into changing their minds (like when he questions his father about the Cain assassination order in "Resurrection Ship").
I think in the case of the Olympic Carrier, he decided that following orders was necessary, because the ship really was a danger to the fleet. But he found it hard to live with. I wonder whether Kara would have made the same choice if she'd been in command of the mission? She certainly seemed ready to defy orders until she saw Lee open fire. At that point, the ship was going to blow up anyway, so she decided not to leave the dirty work to Lee alone. But if she'd been the senior pilot in that situation, I don't know whether she would ever have opened fire.
Reply
I agree that Lee takes responsibility for his actions even if they're orders, but I wonder if the Olympic Carrier wasn't the first time he ever truly questioned an order. Making it easier later for him to mutiny and question the assassination of Cain.
I wonder whether Kara would have made the same choice if she'd been in command of the mission? She certainly seemed ready to defy orders until she saw Lee open fire. At that point, the ship was going to blow up anyway, so she decided not to leave the dirty work to Lee alone. But if she'd been the senior pilot in that situation, I don't know whether she would ever have opened fire.
This is a great question. It's easier for Kara to question and disobey orders so it's entirely possible that she would haven't fired a all. I will have to try to do more thinking about this since I don't have a great answer at this time.
Reply
I think this is a very plausible idea, and probably helps explain the huge emotional impact this incident had on him. I think Lee always had a questioning side to his character, and was always capable of standing up to authority figures like his father, but having to make a decision like this one is a far cry from reading banned books in school and the other small ways he used to question authority. I think that the Olympic Carrier definitely became a symbol in Lee's mind of the need to question military decisions, both his own and his commanding officers'.
Thanks for chatting with me, by the way, I'm enjoying your thoughts very much!
Reply
Thank you for providing an excuse not to fold laundry. I have really enjoyed this too.
Reply
As for the differences in the way he reacted to leaving ships behind on the mini and to actually destroying the OC, I have to agree with Kdbleu in that in the mini there was nothing else they could have done. You pointed out that he said they needed to cut their losses and couldn't risk the safety of the other ships by continuing to transfer passengers and that it actually turned out to be a blessing in disguise that the Cylons started their attack in the last seconds before the fleet jumped away. I think the decision to leave was the only rational, reasonable one at the time and the fact that the cylons started attacking just as they were jumping was not a "blessing in disguise" at all. They had been transfering passengers but Boomer had just spotted a cylons raider which had jumped in the middle of the gathered ships, scanned the area and jumped away with the information on the location of those ships. As a military officer, Lee knew it was a matter of minutes before the cylons returned in great numbers after having located so many survivors. The captain's suggestion that they continue the transfers till the cylons actually arrived was based on emotion and wishful thinking and not on reason. As for Doral, knowing that he was really a cylon, he obviously wanted them to stay so that the cylons could destroy more ships. Thankfully the president had already come to her senses after the close call they had had before. In fact, her decision to stay with the ships they had found and not jump when the cylons found them before was also not logical and reasonable at all. They had no weapons and could not defend themselves nor anybody else. They only survived because of sheer luck (or fate - heehee). I believe Lee only obeyed that order because he had already seen the equipement from Galactica and he quickly formed an alternative strategy that had at least some chance of working. But there was no other strategy available to them when the cylons found them again. As it was, they were lucky to have had enough time to jump themselves.
Having said that, I totally agree with you that there was a moral difference between leaving behind people who could not be saved, and actually killing them himself. This is one of the reasons the OC affected him so much. Also, I find it really interesting that when he tried to talk to Adama about it, his father gave him a speech about how soldiers/leaders don't second guess their decision, they live with them and move on. I think this weighed heavily on Lee. He of course believed that you have to live with the consequences of your decisions but whereas his father seemed to consider that second guessing was a weakness, something that might make you flinch when you should be acting, Lee believed they should always second guess their decisions because they needed to learn from them.
I liked that he tried to be really sure there was no alternative before actually shooting. And the fact that the cylons stopped coming after the ship was destroyed should have been evidence enough that the decision was a sound one. The fact that it bothered him anyway, to me, is a testament to his character and his sensitivity, more than anything else.
What I really, absolutely loved about the whole thing was his final talk with Adama. As you put it : Lee quietly rejects his father's effort to excuse him from responsibility. He doesn't believe in the "I was just following orders" idea -- the chain of command doesn't exempt individual soldiers from the responsibility to evaluate their actions in light of their own moral judgment. This. This is one the reasons I love Lee so much. At the end of the day, we are always responsible for the choices we make. It is easy to hide behind hierarchy or society or anything else. I think Adama was privately proud of Lee's reaction, although he was pained that he couldn't make his son feel better. They were still tiptoeing around each other. And getting to know each other.
Reply
That and he's really, really hawt. ;)
Reply
Reply
Reply
Reply
Reply
Reply
As a military officer, Lee knew it was a matter of minutes before the cylons returned in great numbers after having located so many survivors. The captain's suggestion that they continue the transfers till the cylons actually arrived was based on emotion and wishful thinking and not on reason.
Well, I agree that Lee's assumption that they only had minutes before the Cylons returned was a reasonable one, and the only responsible one to make. But I'm not sure his military training or anyone else's really could have given him grounds for certainty about that. I think one of the points of the miniseries (and early Season One) was that no one in the military had a good idea of what the Cylons' capabilities were. How long would it take a Raider recon mission to return with an attacking force -- how could anyone be sure? Lee didn't know much about Cylon capabilities -- he didn't know that his Viper's antiquated systems were his best protection, and he says that his electromagnetic pulse idea was a desperate gamble, one that had failed in every military training simulation he had worked on in college. He had no reasonable grounds to expect its success, either.
I guess I'm just saying that I don't think his military training could have given him much concrete, trustworthy information about Cylon capabilities, and that he couldn't really be sure whether they could expect a Cylon assault in five minutes or thirty-three minutes or when exactly from the moment that recon ship jumped away. And given that thousands of lives were at stake, I think some decision-makers would have decided to risk staying a few extra minutes if it looked like they could rescue more people that way. I think Roslin seriously considered staying, and if she hadn't already almost gotten them all killed earlier making this very mistake, she might not have been able to accept Lee's advice here. And I'm not confident that Lee would have defied her authority if she made the wrong choice here -- he might have, but he might not have. He certainly addressed her in this crisis as if it were her choice to make, and he had obeyed her before, even though he thought the magnetic pulse plan was a pretty long shot. His military training should have convinced him that the only reasonable option was to jump the ship away then, too, but he deferred to the President.
None of this contradicts your material point, which is that Lee was thinking rationally and he saw no rational alternative to his choice. I think you're right. But I also think that if the whole fleet had jumped away and left all those people to be killed and *never known* how long it actually took the Cylons to show up and attack, that decision probably would have weighed on Lee's mind more than it did, because it would have carried elements of doubt and uncertainty. That's the only sense in which I thought the Cylon's arrival was a 'blessing in disguise' -- obviously it was horrible for everyone involved, but at least Lee and the other survivors didn't have to spend their nights wondering whether they might have had time to save a few hundred or a few thousand more people if they'd waited a little longer before jumping away.
Reply
Leave a comment