Of muscles and dragons XP - The wing debate rises again!
After finally getting to access my DevART account again without time-out errors, I've been going through the 800+ images that were piling up in my account. As I've been going through them, I came across a tutorial-esque image for dragon anatomy focusing on the chest and torso, including wing placement.
The image ultimately has developed conversation in the comments section on different manners of wing muscle attachment to the thoracic/chest region, and Humingbird, a notary artist when it comes to wing attachment techniques, got into the fray discussing different builds with the other artists.
What has got me writing this journal is the fact that the particular discussion she and another artist have had has left me pondering. The artist starting the conversation proposed wing muscles over the front of the chest and over the forelimb/shoulder musculature (kind of similar to my own wing attachment design), proposing either the interlacing of muscle bundles and/or layering over top where the wing muscles would attach higher up on extended spinous processes (the tall middle spine on a vertebrae). Humingbird then refuted the idea, saying that it would 'mangle the pectoral muscles', either by decreasing the wing's total downward force with less strength from the muscles, etc.
But, what I'm wondering is, why couldn't the interlacing/overlapping work? Just the fact that tetrapods have deep muscles and superficial muscles automatically shows that there is evidence of such an idea. Maybe the idea wouldn't work because the wing's pectoral muscles are just too big to really work efficiently over the underlying muscles? I'm not entirely convinced that they couldn't work, I suppose, though by the rule of Occam's Razor, simpler often is selected for/'better', and Humingbird's 'bird musculature behind the forelimbs of a dromaeosaur-type animal' would definitely be simpler.
Also, the idea of pinnate muscles (reptiles are known for these, and the best example I know of is the pterygoid muscles in the jaws of crocodilians that allow for their massive bite force - two blocks of muscle whose fibers are pointing at an angle towards each other are connected via a tendon; that tendon contracts, along with those opposing muscle fibers, and the jaw is closed) may potentially hold water for any muscle modifications needed for the incorporation of both forelimbs and wings.
I really don't know if my ideas would really work, but what I've seen from general anatomy leaves me pondering the potential survival of an overlapping wing musculature. :\
The original image and conversation can be found here: http://scrimpytheshrimp.deviantart.com/art/Part-One-Chest-and-Shoulders-211711726
The image ultimately has developed conversation in the comments section on different manners of wing muscle attachment to the thoracic/chest region, and Humingbird, a notary artist when it comes to wing attachment techniques, got into the fray discussing different builds with the other artists.
What has got me writing this journal is the fact that the particular discussion she and another artist have had has left me pondering. The artist starting the conversation proposed wing muscles over the front of the chest and over the forelimb/shoulder musculature (kind of similar to my own wing attachment design), proposing either the interlacing of muscle bundles and/or layering over top where the wing muscles would attach higher up on extended spinous processes (the tall middle spine on a vertebrae). Humingbird then refuted the idea, saying that it would 'mangle the pectoral muscles', either by decreasing the wing's total downward force with less strength from the muscles, etc.
But, what I'm wondering is, why couldn't the interlacing/overlapping work? Just the fact that tetrapods have deep muscles and superficial muscles automatically shows that there is evidence of such an idea. Maybe the idea wouldn't work because the wing's pectoral muscles are just too big to really work efficiently over the underlying muscles? I'm not entirely convinced that they couldn't work, I suppose, though by the rule of Occam's Razor, simpler often is selected for/'better', and Humingbird's 'bird musculature behind the forelimbs of a dromaeosaur-type animal' would definitely be simpler.
Also, the idea of pinnate muscles (reptiles are known for these, and the best example I know of is the pterygoid muscles in the jaws of crocodilians that allow for their massive bite force - two blocks of muscle whose fibers are pointing at an angle towards each other are connected via a tendon; that tendon contracts, along with those opposing muscle fibers, and the jaw is closed) may potentially hold water for any muscle modifications needed for the incorporation of both forelimbs and wings.
I really don't know if my ideas would really work, but what I've seen from general anatomy leaves me pondering the potential survival of an overlapping wing musculature. :\
The original image and conversation can be found here: http://scrimpytheshrimp.deviantart.com/art/Part-One-Chest-and-Shoulders-211711726