The "Guy's noble sacrifice" scenario

[ladykate63]

I've had a few discussions recently, and read a couple of fanfics, that have made me think about what would have happened and how I would have felt if, instead of the Season 2 finale of Robin Hood (and the third season) that we got, the show had gone the route of having Guy redeem himself through a noble sacrifice (not necessarily of his life!)

Comments

[queerlyobscure]

As a preface to what I'm about to say, I love Guy, I love Marian, and I've even decided that I love Robin, because I excuse Guy for the same sort of things that I previously wouldn't excuse Robin for. The "why" is interesting but not relevant, so I'll leave that there.

I've put quite a bit of thought into this lately, from several angles, and I've come to a couple of conclusions (which are possibly contradictory):

Thought 1: I do not think that realistically any combination of these three people can be a healthy relationship (by "realistically" I mean based only on things we actually saw). Their own personal character flaws are almost perfectly engineered to make each other's lives hell if they actually had to try and live out a normal life together. I actually have trouble thinking that any of these people could have a completely healthy relationship with anyone, without going through a major life change first

[ladykate63]

Thanks Lady! I'll have to check out for_nottingham, I liked what I read before.

I'm not sure I agree that Guy doesn't need to be redeemed if he doesn't kill Marian. For one thing, he clearly believes he does ("heinous crimes", remember?). There's a big difference between killing people in combat and the deliberate murder of unarmed and helpless people, which Guy did repeatedly do at Vaisey's behest (e.g. the miner in Turk Flu whom he killed in front of his family for defying his orders -- and yeah, he was goaded into it by Vaisey, but still). Or being an enforcer for a regime that systematically kills and tortures people for defiance or disobedience, or even to put fear into the population. I mean, as late as Lardner's Ring, Guy is willing to chop off an old woman's finger when he's trying to find "Lardner's ring" on the Sheriff's orders.

Obviously I'm not saying that everything Robin did was moral but still, there's a pretty big difference.

[queerlyobscure]

There's a big difference between killing people in combat and the deliberate murder of unarmed and helpless people

That is where I would have to disagree, especially in context. If the suggestion had been made that Robin had been conscripted and dragged kicking and screaming to the Holy Land, then I would happily make that distinction, but he went off for glory in war, as he says himself.

He figured out later that that was a dick move, but in essence, he went off to a foreign country in order to kill people to raise his status. At least Guy's killing wasn't racially motivated (I jest).

GRK & co. were just as guilty of terrorising and opressing people, and Robin was just as much a tool in that as Guy was for Vaysey. The fact that they can both see that is what makes them not entirely morally repulsive people. After that it's a choice between pragmatism and idealism, which I suppose comes down to personal taste.

(Holy wall of text, Batman! Sorry)

[aceofhadeon]

That's an extremely good point, I have to say! King Richard's Crusade was pretty much a chance for him to indulge in his favorite thing: fighting.

Robs served him for at least some of the reasons Guy obeys Vasey: power and respect. And both Robs and Guy believe in their causes, except Guy has more rational reasons for standing against GKR than Robs has for following him.

[thymelady]

>Guy has more rational reasons for standing against GKR than Robs has for following him.

I agree, Ace.

[thymelady]

Good points you make there, Ladylovelace.

I certainly don't like the way Guy kills and terrorises people. But 3x10, Robin & Guy as kids, at least tell us why. I know it's a somewhat contrived plot device, but again: the show made that decision.

Guy losing so much and nearly being killed by angry villagers because of Robin, lowered my opinion of Robin even further and at least made Guy's reasons understandable to me. That really redeemed him in my eyes, not dying for the cause or for Marian/Robin/the gang/other.

The fact that Guy was the first one to stretch out a hand to Robin in the end of that episode, makes my opinion even stronger.

[ladykate63]

Well, we really have to agree to disagree on this one, then. :)

If it was solely a matter of supporting King Richard vs. Prince John, then maybe. Although, if we're talking about the characters on the show and not real history -- the show's PJ is pretty much a sadistic nut (albeit a hugely entertaining one), and Richard, fall all his faults, is not.

But it's not just a matter of which political side you support. I think it's pretty clearly suggested that Vaisey's regime in Nottingham -- the regime Guy serves -- brutalizes and mistreats powerless people in a way that goes far beyond the "normal" oppression of medieval times. And sorry, but I'm totally disagree with the idea that killing people in combat (where they have a chance to defend themselves and you are also risking your own life) is in any way equivalent to killing or mutilating unarmed, helpless people.

[aceofhadeon]

Have you read what the Crusaders DID? They killed far more unarmed innocents than Vasey or Guy ever did or ever could. They murdered thousands of prisoners (who were civilians, BTW) just because they were too much trouble to keep around when the ransom didn't arive exactly on time. The same excuses that "justified" those killings also "justify" Vasey's killings.

But I suppose the show wants to sugar coat the Crusades too, just like they sugar coat King Richard.

[thymelady]

Yes, the massacre of Jaffa was a terrible slaughter. And lets not forget that the coronation of Richard meant the slaughter of many Jews all over his lands. Richard's fame as a warrior came from numerous slaugthers all over his Aquitaine lands.

What I want to say: a man like Guy commanded a lot of respect in those days because he was a fierce fighter/warrior/law enforcer. His real weakness is actually that he's got moral issues with it deep down, at least in Vasey's eyes

[ladykate63]

Well, hold on -- are we talking about history, or are we talking about the show as a work of fiction very loosely based on history? Historically, even leaving the pacifism aside, it makes no sense whatsoever that the "good guys" would (for instance) consider torture to be morally unacceptable, when in fact it was a normal law enforcement method in the Middle Ages. The show has semi-modern sensibilities, that much is obvious. The historic King Richard barely spoke English and regarded England mainly as a province to plunder to finance his wars, and I'm sure the historic King John (to whom many historians believe the standard version of history has been quite unfair) did not order his guards to burn down a church full of peasants and the Sheriff of Nottingham on whom the evil Sheriff of the RH legends is based did not do stuff like test out poisons on ordinary city dwellers.

IMO, a work of historical fiction has to be taken on its own terms. So, if I'm watching Xena: Warrior Princess where Xena joins Boadicea's noble war of

[thymelady]

>Well, hold on -- are we talking about history, or are we talking about the show as a work of fiction very loosely based on history?

I had a feeling you would say that. ;-) Taking the show's anachronistic point of view into matter - anachronisms that really gall me sometimes - there is a will to show the greys between good and bad. Who IS really good and bad? Is it good to do good things if it put the woman you love in harm's way? Is it bad to do bad things if it saves the woman you love? These are heavy moral issues for every historical era, even if a number of moral matters are completely out of context

[ladykate63]

I don't really have a problem with historical inaccuracy. :) The modern political analogies were a bit heavy-handed at times, but I thought the "modern" sensibility gave the show an interesting edge.

I'm not sure the relative whitewashing of the Crusades on the show was just "for the kids." I mean, they showed some very dark stuff when showing Vaisey's rule in Nottingham. If they wanted to, they could have shown Robin Hood as fighting for the poor because he wants to redeem himself for some of the horrible crimes committed during the Crusades. Actually that could have been quite interesting and could have made for a great parallel storyline for Robin and Guy. But that's not the story we were given, because they wanted to stick close enough to the "established" Robin Hood legend that Robin has to remain a loyal follower of King Richard

[katrushkalupin]

Well the bit about the family sending children away to train is true enough, but the first born always got the land, whether he got sent away or not. I think in 'Fallout' his bitterness had more to do with the fact that he had nothing to fall back on and GKR's betrayal of his family. In my opinion his anger is totally justified; he was forced into a shitty state of affairs due to Richards rampant B.S.

[ladykate63]

Oh, I totally agree with that, and I think Fallout definitely makes Guy's anger toward Richard sympathetic. Mind you, I never got any sense on the show that Guy harbored a personal hostility to Richard, but bookishy's version definitely worked for me. (Incidentally, I recently came across something that made me realize her portrayal of the events was quite true to history -- a lot of families that lost their lands for supporting Richard in the rebellion against Henry got screwed when Richard came to power. Apparently Richard was reluctant to reward his former supporters in any way because he didn't want people to be reminded of the fact that he had rebelled against the lawful king.)

I'm just saying that in the story it also totally worked for me that Guy was bitter (among other things) about his family having to send him away at an early age, but in fact twelve would have been on the "older" side for starting an apprenticeship.

[an_lagat_glas]

The Marian at f_n, as far as I know, is actually an R/M shipper. (isn't that crazy?)

[aceofhadeon]

Really? Interesting. She writes some very hawt Guy/Maz interactions, though!