I don't think it was because she was "old" and a "woman". I think it was more because she brought some degree of ambiguity into STAR WARS -- as a lot of KOTOR II did -- and people just can't stand that. We're very quick to judge, very hypocritical, very...smugly certain that we've never made any mistakes, that we're smarter than anyone else (I'm using a more general for humanity "we" here, don't you worry. :)...and the idea of things being otherwise kind of freaks us the fuck out. We're pretty much allergic to uncertainty -- it's a very human quality. (In a...neutral way, I guess?) So...yeah. :/
That's what I mean by the fear of infinity, and, adding to that, the fear of looking inside and seeing the not-so-light inside. Very few people have the courage to do this. And I'm sure the ageiems and sexism has a part in it, too.
You see, while all of EU is sliding into this morass of gritty darkfic, none of these writers even understand that darkfic is an artform, let alone having a mastery of it. K2 is an excellent example of a well done darkfic and people can't stand it for that.
Yeah, this. *Sighs* It also explains why they're accepting asshole!Luke as well -- they can't take genuinely good main characters. (And by "good" I mean "honorable" -- they can't stand main characters with even a smidgen of honor in them) I know elizabeth_hoot brought up that idea...quite a while ago regarding one of my rants regarding how hard it was to write Luke in the RR-verse.
I think KOTOR II did it well if only because it wasn't dark just because of attempts to be "shocking" (like LOTF and FOTJ) -- it did it well because Chris Avellone, one of the main writers on the game, felt strongly about it. (I'm referring to Chris here because he thought up most of it, from what I heard) He delved deep into his discontent with certain aspects of the STAR WARS universe (sort of how I write my darkfics, really, so you could say he was an influence on me. :) and as a result, crafted one of the most original games in the STAR WARS franchise. In addition, it wasn't completely dark -- it really was a trip "down the rabbit hole", so to speak, but it still had spots of humor along the way -- bleak humor, yes, but still humor. Atton, for example, as well as Kreia, a lot of the crew -- even the side characters, the really minor characters, had their moments. (The racist Ithorian, for example. XD) It had genuinely compelling villains (I remember one interview with Avellone where he said -- if my memory serves me correctly -- that fighting villains like, say, Sauron was all well and good, but it was more interesting to see one fighting more...sympathetic villains to so speak. Gollum, for example. *) with genuinely compelling (or at least sympathetic) backstories. There's Atris, for example, as well as Kreia. Even those who don't get a backstory per se (Sion, for example) are still genuinely compelling just because they're not entirely evil. General Vaklu, for example, isn't allying with the Sith just because he's a greedy jackass -- he's allying himself with the Sith because he thinks that it's best for Onderon (which it's not). Czerka Corporation may be greedy fucks, but they also genuinely think they're doing the right thing and that the Ithorians are...well, Lawful Stupid, really. Sion mostly wants revenge on Kreia at first, but as you dig deeper, you can see some degree of Well Intentioned Extremism in there (for example, calling out Revan for abandoning the galaxy, as well as his love for the female Exile, twisted as it may be). In addition, there was a degree of hope in there at the end -- at least in the LS ending. True, the ending is incomplete, most would argue, but it still counts for something.
KOTOR II was a well-told, well-constructed story. REVAN has none of these things. So in a way, Avellone, for all he is condemned, is an infinitely better writer than Karpyshyn could ever be.
((#Prays she made sense))
* I think Scorchy also commented on the LOTR references in his LP. Comparing Atris to Denethor, for instance -- and in all honesty, I can see it. Her relationships with Brianna and the Exile, for example.
It's the "in-thing" to have characters that have clay feet and many weaknesses. Any character that has honor or any greatness, and they want to knock them down. They want the characters to be "real," i.e., to reflect that they hate themselves or something.
KOTOR II brought up a lot of meta that challenged popular Star Wars themes, and none of it was just for show, or ooo, ahh, shock shock.
You see, while all of EU is sliding into this morass of gritty darkfic, none of these writers even understand that darkfic is an artform, let alone having a mastery of it. K2 is an excellent example of a well done darkfic and people can't stand it for that.
Yee-haw! I'm back at last, and what do I see but people torturing KOTOR further?
Anyway, exactly. Dark!fic blurs the lines, IMO. That's good dark!fic. In bad dark!fic, shit happens all the time to everyone for no fucking good reason other than to torment the reader. That's all I can really say.
For my sanity's sake I had to detach from this. So, I laugh at this, it is so bad. So bad, so bad. It's worse than I had ever feared about KOTOR's possible fate. It's so bad I it isn't even real to me.
It is. I'm like "what are you and what have you done to my fandom?!"
For God's sake this is Star Wars, not HP Lovecraft. I can sort of understand that happening to Revan if this wasn't Star Wars (I mean, understandably dark fates tend to occur to characters in Lovecraft, and this doesn't even sound well-written) but this...this...*weeps*
I wish I had the same detachment. Right now, I'm just going: this is not happening. This is not happening.
That's what I mean by the fear of infinity, and, adding to that, the fear of looking inside and seeing the not-so-light inside. Very few people have the courage to do this. And I'm sure the ageiems and sexism has a part in it, too.
You see, while all of EU is sliding into this morass of gritty darkfic, none of these writers even understand that darkfic is an artform, let alone having a mastery of it. K2 is an excellent example of a well done darkfic and people can't stand it for that.
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I think KOTOR II did it well if only because it wasn't dark just because of attempts to be "shocking" (like LOTF and FOTJ) -- it did it well because Chris Avellone, one of the main writers on the game, felt strongly about it. (I'm referring to Chris here because he thought up most of it, from what I heard) He delved deep into his discontent with certain aspects of the STAR WARS universe (sort of how I write my darkfics, really, so you could say he was an influence on me. :) and as a result, crafted one of the most original games in the STAR WARS franchise. In addition, it wasn't completely dark -- it really was a trip "down the rabbit hole", so to speak, but it still had spots of humor along the way -- bleak humor, yes, but still humor. Atton, for example, as well as Kreia, a lot of the crew -- even the side characters, the really minor characters, had their moments. (The racist Ithorian, for example. XD) It had genuinely compelling villains (I remember one interview with Avellone where he said -- if my memory serves me correctly -- that fighting villains like, say, Sauron was all well and good, but it was more interesting to see one fighting more...sympathetic villains to so speak. Gollum, for example. *) with genuinely compelling (or at least sympathetic) backstories. There's Atris, for example, as well as Kreia. Even those who don't get a backstory per se (Sion, for example) are still genuinely compelling just because they're not entirely evil. General Vaklu, for example, isn't allying with the Sith just because he's a greedy jackass -- he's allying himself with the Sith because he thinks that it's best for Onderon (which it's not). Czerka Corporation may be greedy fucks, but they also genuinely think they're doing the right thing and that the Ithorians are...well, Lawful Stupid, really. Sion mostly wants revenge on Kreia at first, but as you dig deeper, you can see some degree of Well Intentioned Extremism in there (for example, calling out Revan for abandoning the galaxy, as well as his love for the female Exile, twisted as it may be). In addition, there was a degree of hope in there at the end -- at least in the LS ending. True, the ending is incomplete, most would argue, but it still counts for something.
KOTOR II was a well-told, well-constructed story. REVAN has none of these things. So in a way, Avellone, for all he is condemned, is an infinitely better writer than Karpyshyn could ever be.
((#Prays she made sense))
* I think Scorchy also commented on the LOTR references in his LP. Comparing Atris to Denethor, for instance -- and in all honesty, I can see it. Her relationships with Brianna and the Exile, for example.
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KOTOR II brought up a lot of meta that challenged popular Star Wars themes, and none of it was just for show, or ooo, ahh, shock shock.
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Yee-haw! I'm back at last, and what do I see but people torturing KOTOR further?
Anyway, exactly. Dark!fic blurs the lines, IMO. That's good dark!fic. In bad dark!fic, shit happens all the time to everyone for no fucking good reason other than to torment the reader. That's all I can really say.
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It's a horrible thing to return to, isn't it?
For my sanity's sake I had to detach from this. So, I laugh at this, it is so bad. So bad, so bad. It's worse than I had ever feared about KOTOR's possible fate. It's so bad I it isn't even real to me.
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For God's sake this is Star Wars, not HP Lovecraft. I can sort of understand that happening to Revan if this wasn't Star Wars (I mean, understandably dark fates tend to occur to characters in Lovecraft, and this doesn't even sound well-written) but this...this...*weeps*
I wish I had the same detachment. Right now, I'm just going: this is not happening. This is not happening.
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The thing about KOTOR is that it seemed so bright and upbeat in spite of dealing with dark themes.
It is a rather Lovecraftian theme, isn't it? But KOTOR isn't Lovecraftian, Karpyshin! And Lovecraftian implies well written!
I had to detach from this for sanity's sake, I had to. I've been too depressed over this for too long.
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