(no subject)
It has come to my attention that Ronin seems to think that Tyr is of the Vanir.
When I read this statement to Joe, he exploded with a
W H A T ? ? ? ?
He'd never heard anything so ridiculous, so unfounded, so stupid in his life. Ronin is, of course, more than welcome to give some indication, some support of the statement that Tyr is Vanir. Show me in the Norse lore where it says this. Come on, Ronin, if you're so confident in your assertion, you should be able to BACK IT UP with some facts here.
I DO back MY assertion up with evidence from the lore itself, so if I can do it, so can you. And I'm supposedly such an idiot and I don't know what I'm talking about according to most people who don't know shit about me...so it should be easy to disprove everything I say here. Go on, give it a try. I want quotations from some kind of REAL Norse lore that indicates that Tyr is Vanir.
But it gets better.
Ronin also seems to think that I do not know whereof I speak when it comes to the Norse Gods. I shall quote him on this one:
"Ya know, if you're going to pull from other systems to attempt to carry your feeble point, you should probably get the gods right. Tyr is Vanir, not Aesir.
Of course, from the hammering you're getting on your mislaid statements, I doubt that you need me pointing out yet another area in which you're wrong."
If he only knew. *evil grin* Lexa knows. Jarred knows. Dev knows.
Do not start in with my partner Joe and I when it comes to the Norse Gods. You will NOT win.
Joe in particular is an Odinist of the first degree, and if Odin is a deity of anything at all it is knowledge. Joseph has embodied this to an esoteric level, especially with regards to all things Asatru.
So, school is now in session.
I shall state very clearly here that evidence shows that Tyr is neither Vanir or Aesir - but JOTUN.
I can hear the shrieking from here, because most people seem to think that the jotun are EVIL beings.
Hogwash. Not every single jotun out there is out to "get" the Gods or the human race.
Let's look at this assertion, shall we?
My immediate thought would be to look straight to the Poetic Edda for enlightenment on Tyr's parentage. Who is He born of? Can we find this out? Yes, we can.
It is in the Hymiskvadet (the Lay of Hymer), found here: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/odin/odin-15.htm
In this tale, we see Tyr speaking of His father Hymer. He says,
"There lives to the east of the Eli-waves,
Many-wise Hymer at the end of the sky:
My battle-loving father owns such a kettle,
A capacious brewing vessel miles deep."
And later in the poem, more than once, Hymer is referred to as "the giant" as evidenced here:
Late that evening came
Misshapen, harsh Hymer home from the hunt;
Icicles rattled as he stepped in,
For the man's face forest was frozen.
"Hail, Hymer, be mild of mind!
The scion is come to your halls;
Him whom we awaited from far away;
With him comes a noble foe, friend of warriors, Vior by name.
"See them under the gable,
Sheltering, fearful, behind the post."
At the giant's mere glance, the pillar collapsed
And above it the roof-ridge broke in two.
Eight kettles fell from the ridgepole down;
Only one, hard-tempered, remained unbroken.
The guests stepped forth as the grim old giant
With glowering glare followed his foe.
Another word for giant in Old Norse is "jotun." Yet ANOTHER word for "giant" in Old Norse is "thurs" which is also used in reference to Tyr's father in this poem.
Thor is known as a giant-crusher, and this is why Tyr's mother had to use a different name for Lorride (Lorride being a byname of Thor). Hymer would have known Thor to be his enemy had she spoken his real name.
Not only that, but it is not unusual to find beings of stock OTHER than simply Aesir and Vanir among the Gods; Skadi is a jotun (and a spanking fine one at that) - Loki is a jotun - Heimdall is thought to be Vanir and some think of Him as jotun (from Aegir's daughters, the Nine Waves) - Tyr is a jotun and invited the Gods into the hall of his father, a jotun. There could be a case made for Gerd, a jotun maid, being one of the Aesir as well (she being the one for whom Freyr sacrificed His magnificent sword to win her love; see the Skirnismal for the story on that).
Now, let us examine the Vafthrudnismal. It is found here: http://www.angelfire.com/on/Wodensharrow/vafthrudhnismal.html
In this poem, we come across this verse:
Odin speaking to Vafthrudnir:
Vouch to me tenth, Vafþrúðnir,
How Njörd comes to be counted a god,
To have high altars and temples
Raised to his name though not god-born.
Vafthrudnir responds:
In Vanaheim did the Vanes shape him
And gave him as pledge to the gods:
After the Doom of this Age he will return
Home to the all-wise Vanes.
OK, so we have Njord named as one of the Vanes or Vanir. Does Tyr's name come up in any discussion of the Vanir? No. Examine the whole poem; it's not in there. If Tyr had been one of the Vanir, one of those "not god born" why was His name not brought up? Why only Njord?
OK, on to the Lokasenna (always a fun one).
A link: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/odin/odin-22.htm
We find here this exchange:
LOKI: Shut up, Njord. When eastward hence you were sent as hostage of the gods, Hymer's maids used you for a jar and poured (urinated) in your mouth.
NJORD: I have the consolation that when I was eastward sent as hostage of the gods, I begot a son whom no one hates, a doughty defender of the Aesir.
LOKI: Stay, Njord, hold your tongue; no longer shall this be hid: with your sister you begot such a son. It was to be expected.
TYR: Frey is the best of all the bold Aesir: no man's wife or maid laments on his account. He loosens all links.
Let's note here that Tyr uses the word "Aesir" to speak of Freyr. "But Freyr is of the Vanir!" I can hear the shrieking from here. Gasp! Horrors! This cannot be!
This indicates to those of insight that there is more than ONE meaning of the word "Aesir" -- is it possible? Oh my goodness, yes!
1: It refers to all the Gods who dwell in Asgard, male and female.
2: It refers to all male Gods that reside in Asgard. If referring to the female deities specifically, the word "asynjor" is used.
3: It also refers specifically to the children of Odin (as evidenced by words like "asa-sons" and "Asa Thor" in the Vafthrudnismal).
People are too hidebound to one definition of the word "Aesir" and they need to loosen up on it quite a bit. They need to immerse themselves in this lore specifically, if they are going to learn things about the Gods. So therefore, as I mentioned earlier, it is possible for Tyr to be of other ancestry besides Aesir (in the context of being one of Odin's sons) and Vanir. His home was NOT in Vanaheim; that is Freyr's land, given to Him as a tooth-gift.
I don't know; maybe Ronin has Freyr and Tyr mixed up. But Tyr is NOT Vanir.
Naturally, I expect Ronin to have some really shallow comeback for all this.
But it is as I was going to write about another Asatruar I have dealt with who doesn't like certain practices of mine: are you one of the Gods? Are you fucking, financing or feeding me? If the answer to these is no, then your views are as mud to me.
You also do not have any inkling as to what I do and do not know; you are basing your statement on one post that you did not like. You have not been reading my journals for years and years. You don't talk to me on chat. You don't exchange emails with me on a daily basis.
If you're a real man, stand corrected, Ronin. Have some balls, and stand corrected.
Otherwise, I don't want to see your name darkening this diary ever again with YOUR incorrect statements about things YOU clearly have NO knowledge of.