Re: in my own opinion...lastremnantJanuary 27 2007, 21:45:10 UTC
I disagree that we are only animals. I think we are spiritual beings as well and sex is part of that spiritual dimension as well as physical. To say that animals have intercourse and reproduce as we do so we should behave as they do, would claim that we are exactly the same as animals when even our rational brains show us as something more. Many animals kill, but that doesn't mean that we should kill when we feel our personal space intruded upon. We have higher rational brains and have a spiritual dimension. Our purpose isn't just to reproduce and survive. I doubt if you ask a million people what their purpose in life is they would answer, "To reproduce and survive." :) That is not the thing that has driven society for centuries and even influenced your own scientific field to expand to where it is today. I think it is dehumanizing to call us exclusively animals divorced of rational thought and reason and a spiritual dimension. We are much different than the typical animal on this planet. The reason why the media focusses on sex (and here is something I know a lot about having studied and worked in media for the past 8 years) is because it is a lazy way to go about selling something that reinforces a misguided attitude in modern society. It's cars salesman-esque. And the reason why it keeps getting more provocative and lewd is because they have to keep the "shock" value going in order to somehow have their item get more news than others. So it will get either more violent or more perverse sexually with each year that passes. They will also push the envelope younger and younger. We see that in the use of sex in marketing young music artists with each passing year. The modern movie industry is a great example (just look at the big news from Sundance being a 12 year old getting raped in a movie). I hardly believe that the modern use of sex in media is healthy.
As per evidence, I have friends and friends of friends who know full well the dangers of having sex at an early age and wished they wouldn't have given into the peer pressure as enforced by those around them. I don't believe that "students will have sex is that they will." I think that is having a very superficial expectation of the intelligence and strength of our youth. I didn't. I have friends that didn't. The media doesn't present that as anywhere near the norm so everyone tends to believe it. If another people say something without anything to contrary, everyone believes it as truth. Statistics in this regard are meaningless as you full know the influence of having sex in modern society would influence many young adults to say they had it when they didn't. I know MANY MANY MANY MANY young adults who abstained and waited until marriage. Those that do usually do so because of a pressure from society and too little education on the dangers of having sex before marriage. I hardly think that the modern perception of sex among youth, with the modern presentation of teens and preteens in film and music helps "reduce" sex in modern society. The truth of the matter is that sex is not JUST a physical act for men and women.
And I fully do think we should educate children, but that would mean teaching them more about the value of abstinence, the real meaning of sex (on emotional and spiritual grounds), what it truly means and not by treating them solely as animals who cannot control themselves. I would give children a bit more respect than that in my expectation that they could fully grasp the situation when given enough knowledge on it to overcome what society tells them. I think a human child has more potential to make decisions than a dog or cat.
Re: in my own opinion...lastremnantJanuary 27 2007, 21:54:49 UTC
Looking back on our comments here, I am not sure we should monopolize Karen's LJ with our discussion as it looks like it might go on and on with our back and forth comments. Let's move it to a community or email? Thanks! :)
Re: in my own opinion...neutronJanuary 27 2007, 22:08:16 UTC
Spirituality is a matter of opinion. You can't assert that humans have souls/spirits/etc without acknowledging that it's your opinion. There is absolutely NO WAY to know that aside from personal belief. Humans are actually NOT that different from other animals- beyond the capacity for recursive thought, there is little that separates humans from other animals, biologically speaking. Of course no person says their purpose is survival and reproduction, but it's implicit in our actions to both continue our lives and have children. Humans have greatly reduced evolutionary pressure now, and so we have time to pursue other avenues, but fundamental is survival and reproduction. If we lost those urges, we wouldn't last very long.
Do you work with kids? You seem to have a very idealized notion of teenagers- they're full of hormones and their brains are completely scrambled from puberty. They're intelligent kids, but you cannot act as though they are rational, logical human beings who weigh the costs and benefits of a decision properly when they're alone with the opposite sex. It's not society telling them what to do, it's their BODIES. It's unnatural to wait for marriage- that's a social construct, not a biological one. I'm not saying that there are not good reasons to wait, but it's not really the natural course of a human. Yes, a human has a greater reasoning capacity than a dog or cat, and that's a very disingenuous representation of a larger point.
Regarding statistics, do you really think all the kids who say that they haven't are telling the truth? The same reporting bias exists on your end as well, if not more so. Pressure from church or parents to remain chaste can easily result in a teenager lying and saying they hadn't when they had- I certainly did and so did most of my friends. I felt absolutely NO pressure from society to have sex- I did it because I wanted to, I was curious and it felt good.
The truth of the matter is that sex is not JUST a physical act for men and women. That's not the "truth," that's your opinion. I think it can be any range of things, from physical act to an act of emotional and psychological bonding. Fundamentally, it IS a physical act, and we endow it socially with much more importance than it has Biologically.
Re: in my own opinion...lastremnantJanuary 27 2007, 23:03:34 UTC
I am glad that you agree with me about the unreliability of using statistics. But I think you are totally missing the point of about the deeper meaning of sex. I hardly think that spiritual can be easily dismissed. The evidence of the spiritual in various cultures around the world testifies to its existence and there are numerous examples of the spiritual, even scientifically verified, so you should do some more research in that avenue rather than accepting what anti-God philosophers propose. To quickly dismiss the spiritual is the result of a very prideful way of looking at things, especially ourselves.
Yes, I HAVE worked with kids and teens for the past 13 years! I have probably spoken to more than you have in your teaching experience since you are still pretty young and new to teaching. I also once was a kid too as were the people I mentioned before. I didn't have sex as did others when we were "alone" with the opposite sex *boogity boogity boogity*. Teens really DO HAVE BRAINS that work and function. Please respect your students' intelligence a bit more. Their hormones DON'T control their thoughts. Don't belittle teens with that misconception. That's a superficial way to dismiss things they do when in fact there are deeper meanings and reasons for their actions. I hope you'll learn that as you get to know them better in your teaching years ahead. It is natural to wait for marriage in a human being. It is natural to seek that deeper meaning and bond with someone, to wish for it in someone else. Most kids that have sex do feel regret and hurt and A LOT of emotional pain, a ton of it. And it also leads to a lot of other social problems and psychological problems for them in their future and how they deal with others. Your social construct theory shows a very ignorant view of historical sociology in human cultures for the past few thousand years as evident by the marriage customs displayed in wide and diverse cultures from native americans to asian cultures to african to european and even the seemingly isolated pacific islander!!!!
"It felt good"??? That is EXACTLY my point here and what I am talking about. It's not a drug. It's more than that, more beautiful than that banality. Even if you dismiss the spiritual there is a lot of emotional results that happens because of it, especially for teens. But it's that "feel good" mentality that has caused a lot of problems in our society. It's what has created the misuse of sex in our media. It teaches us to do things because it feels good regardless of others around us. It has fortified objectification. It's that mentality that drives sexualization of youth by our media culture. It's a very selfish mentality where one uses the other so they can "feel good" and gratify themselves instead of witnessing the beauty of a situation, the deeper meaning of it all, and that true physical, emotional, and spiritual bond. To teach children to do stuff because it "feels good" and because it feels good "then it is right" is a very harmful way of going about any topic from drugs to alcohol all the way up and including sex.
With all of this said, I am not going to fill up Karen's LJ with our conversation on this any more. So this is my last comment, let's move the discussion somewhere else.
As per evidence, I have friends and friends of friends who know full well the dangers of having sex at an early age and wished they wouldn't have given into the peer pressure as enforced by those around them. I don't believe that "students will have sex is that they will." I think that is having a very superficial expectation of the intelligence and strength of our youth. I didn't. I have friends that didn't. The media doesn't present that as anywhere near the norm so everyone tends to believe it. If another people say something without anything to contrary, everyone believes it as truth. Statistics in this regard are meaningless as you full know the influence of having sex in modern society would influence many young adults to say they had it when they didn't. I know MANY MANY MANY MANY young adults who abstained and waited until marriage. Those that do usually do so because of a pressure from society and too little education on the dangers of having sex before marriage. I hardly think that the modern perception of sex among youth, with the modern presentation of teens and preteens in film and music helps "reduce" sex in modern society. The truth of the matter is that sex is not JUST a physical act for men and women.
And I fully do think we should educate children, but that would mean teaching them more about the value of abstinence, the real meaning of sex (on emotional and spiritual grounds), what it truly means and not by treating them solely as animals who cannot control themselves. I would give children a bit more respect than that in my expectation that they could fully grasp the situation when given enough knowledge on it to overcome what society tells them. I think a human child has more potential to make decisions than a dog or cat.
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Do you work with kids? You seem to have a very idealized notion of teenagers- they're full of hormones and their brains are completely scrambled from puberty. They're intelligent kids, but you cannot act as though they are rational, logical human beings who weigh the costs and benefits of a decision properly when they're alone with the opposite sex. It's not society telling them what to do, it's their BODIES. It's unnatural to wait for marriage- that's a social construct, not a biological one. I'm not saying that there are not good reasons to wait, but it's not really the natural course of a human. Yes, a human has a greater reasoning capacity than a dog or cat, and that's a very disingenuous representation of a larger point.
Regarding statistics, do you really think all the kids who say that they haven't are telling the truth? The same reporting bias exists on your end as well, if not more so. Pressure from church or parents to remain chaste can easily result in a teenager lying and saying they hadn't when they had- I certainly did and so did most of my friends. I felt absolutely NO pressure from society to have sex- I did it because I wanted to, I was curious and it felt good.
The truth of the matter is that sex is not JUST a physical act for men and women.
That's not the "truth," that's your opinion. I think it can be any range of things, from physical act to an act of emotional and psychological bonding. Fundamentally, it IS a physical act, and we endow it socially with much more importance than it has Biologically.
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Yes, I HAVE worked with kids and teens for the past 13 years! I have probably spoken to more than you have in your teaching experience since you are still pretty young and new to teaching. I also once was a kid too as were the people I mentioned before. I didn't have sex as did others when we were "alone" with the opposite sex *boogity boogity boogity*. Teens really DO HAVE BRAINS that work and function. Please respect your students' intelligence a bit more. Their hormones DON'T control their thoughts. Don't belittle teens with that misconception. That's a superficial way to dismiss things they do when in fact there are deeper meanings and reasons for their actions. I hope you'll learn that as you get to know them better in your teaching years ahead. It is natural to wait for marriage in a human being. It is natural to seek that deeper meaning and bond with someone, to wish for it in someone else. Most kids that have sex do feel regret and hurt and A LOT of emotional pain, a ton of it. And it also leads to a lot of other social problems and psychological problems for them in their future and how they deal with others. Your social construct theory shows a very ignorant view of historical sociology in human cultures for the past few thousand years as evident by the marriage customs displayed in wide and diverse cultures from native americans to asian cultures to african to european and even the seemingly isolated pacific islander!!!!
"It felt good"??? That is EXACTLY my point here and what I am talking about. It's not a drug. It's more than that, more beautiful than that banality. Even if you dismiss the spiritual there is a lot of emotional results that happens because of it, especially for teens. But it's that "feel good" mentality that has caused a lot of problems in our society. It's what has created the misuse of sex in our media. It teaches us to do things because it feels good regardless of others around us. It has fortified objectification. It's that mentality that drives sexualization of youth by our media culture. It's a very selfish mentality where one uses the other so they can "feel good" and gratify themselves instead of witnessing the beauty of a situation, the deeper meaning of it all, and that true physical, emotional, and spiritual bond. To teach children to do stuff because it "feels good" and because it feels good "then it is right" is a very harmful way of going about any topic from drugs to alcohol all the way up and including sex.
With all of this said, I am not going to fill up Karen's LJ with our conversation on this any more. So this is my last comment, let's move the discussion somewhere else.
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