Yep, Buffy comics are fan fic

[kudagirl]

I tried reading the Buffy comics and just couldn't stand them.
Season eight seemed to be badly written fan fic to me and I
might have been right.

"Talking more about the Buffy comics, Whedon addressed the "Buffy and Angel

Comments

[red_satin_doll]

Most of us have that moment in life when it just changes and you have to become the adult.

When I was a little girl I couldn't wait until I was a grown up and sit at the adults table because I didn't identify with the other kids my age. Decades later, I'm still wondering when the hell I'm going to feel like an adult.

In my experience there hasn't been "a moment" (what would that entail? Your wedding day? Giving birth?); but then in dysfunctional family units the boundaries are pretty unclear. Children take care of their parents (and that can be in subtle ways, not necessarily something obvious like cleaning the mess off the floor when a parent returns home drunk.) The adult/child roles shift back and forth constantly; so you have adults who are stunted children and children who are old beyond their years but still needing to be nurtured.

that's not to say families that get it right don't exist. I've seen them, at any rate. but 'dysfunctional family dynamics' is one of the lens' through which I view the show because it fits so well.

Didn't the other slayers' watchers support them? A paycheck from the Council would have gone a long way to help Buffy.

norwie2010 told me once that Joss doesn't understand the working class, but I'd say that's true of most television producers, if the last 40 years of American tv are any evidence. (the exceptions - Roseanne, Good Times, All in the Family, Married with Children, Raising Hope - are just that, exceptions.) In most tv shows people have larger apartments than they could afford on their supposed salaries, nicer cars, money just seems to come from nowhere, etc. Our media isn't equipped to deal with these issues because it's embarrassing; we'd have to admit there are real disparities of income, and we'd rather not do that (in the US).

The early seasons held to the same pattern - so, apparently the Summers had a good house in LA and we presume it's because of Hank's job (of which we know almost nothing - what does he do for a living) and we're left to guess the rest. How is Joyce able to support herself, Buffy and that large house on the income of an art gallery manager? Or is it owner? (My partner is an artist and I assure you that running an art gallery is NOT the way to go if you want to get rich, although it may be a handy tax write-off.) In fact we never see Joyce at work period.

Then later on Xander jumps from ditch digger (who whines about the fact that he's not going to college) to construction foreman and master carpenter who can afford his own car and a very nice apartment. In a year's time. Huh? How is Tara able to decorate her dorm room so beautifully in S4? How is she able to afford to have a single room to herself? Did she receive money from her mother? College grants and scholarships? What about Willow, does she have contact with her parents all that time, who were very comfortable middle-class?

Meanwhile Giles is able to live for a year as an unemployed slacker, and we can assume he's getting unemployment because of the school being blown up, but that only gets you so far. How was he able to buy the Magic box? Then in S7 we see he has a fabulous estate in England; again with the huh? (Don't even get me started on his failure to take care of Buffy; did he pay the bills when he dragged those Potentials to her house and forced her to play innkeeper/General/surrogate mother/guardian?) Apparently Joss decided at some point that Giles "came from money" - it's the usual American way of not dealing with the issue.

So basically, they muffed it up big time and there's no wanking it or making it right because of Joss' failures re: worldbuilding from day one. And god knows I love Buffy so much it hurts.

[kudagirl]

I was forced into adult hood very early. My mom didn't drive and depended on my older brother to drive her. My dad was worthless. He never helped our family, but lived in the same house with us. When my brother left home, I was only thirteen. As soon as I became fourteen, my mom pushed me into Drivers Ed. I was not allowed to ride my bike beyond two streets from our house at thirteen, but at fourteen I was I got my license to drive. From then on, I was deemed the family caretaker. I drove everyone everywhere. I wasn't allowed to date, but was expected to do whatever whenever the family needed anything. This continued after I got married and up until my mom died. So I shoulder adult responsibilities early in life. Often people are not really adults till their parents die. Many are raising families and caring for their adult parents as well. So it varies.

I often wondered if Hank paid child support after the divorce. In CA, Joyce would have gotten half of everything in the divorce plus child support. I think she used money from the divorce to buy the house in Sunnydale, but still owed money on it when she died. Joyce clearly didn't share information with Buffy about how she paid for things during that time. It was never clear if Joyce owned the art gallery or not. I often wondered if the Council had a hand in her moving to Sunnydale. They got Giles the job at the school I'm sure. That way he was in close contact with his slayer charge.

I think the Giles family had money. Giles' father was part of the Council as were many of the watchers' family. Wesley's father was as well. Many of the watchers trained their slayers long before they were called. The girls often left home to live with their watchers. Buffy was unusual in that respect. It was the reason she wasn't a typical slayer. She had family and friends. She had a life outside of slaying. Kendra once commented that she lived with her watcher and was angry when a vampire damaged her shirt. It was her favorite shirt, her only shirt. That sort of sounds like slayer were given only minor support by their watchers. Gwendolyn Post praised Faith for her small motel room. She compared it to the living conditions to that of the Spartans. Possibly the watchers kept the training slayers without much to harden them up and dependent on the watchers. They considered the slayers as their weapons against the demons and not much else.

Yes, I questioned how both Tara and Willow seemed to have money for school, but used Joyce's money while living rent free at Buffy's. Then Buffy struggled to feed Dawn and pay bills while both Tara and Willow still lived there.

I think Joss like so many writers don't want us to question the grey areas of their works. They just want us to accept things as they are.

[red_satin_doll]

Ah you know exactly what I'm talking about. I'm sorry to hear you had a hard childhood; I wouldn't wish my own on anyone and it sounds like yours was quite a bit worse. I'm amazed that they pushed you into Drivers Ed that young; where did you live? You reminded me of how my mother wouldn't let me go to the neighbor's yard much less down the block without reporting it to her first because 'someone" out there might try to hurt me, that there were bad people in the world; and meanwhile we lived with a monster (her husband) and the danger was within our own house and I wanted nothing more than to get away from that. It's odd how willfully blind people can be, isn't it?

Many are raising families and caring for their adult parents as well.

One of the things I find interesting about Season 5 of btvs are the intertwined themes of mental & physical illness, disparities of care in the medical system, the burden on families and how care of sick family members falls almost entirely on the shoulders of women.

if Hank paid child support after the divorce. In CA, Joyce would have gotten half of everything in the divorce plus child support.

it occurred to me that after Dawn was created he should be paying for her, too and that check should be going to Buffy every month after Joyce's death. But we don't know any of this; the writers were sloppy and I don't think it would have been that hard to fix; for instance Buffy leaving a phone message on her Dad's machine that the check is late again. Basically they were just interesting in putting Buffy through the wringer in every way possible (Joss likes to break characters down completely - emotional sadist that he is - and the Angel of Logic has never been his friend.)

I think you're right that Joss doesn't want his work questioned; rahirah got it right when she said his "apologies" were more "I'm sorry you're offended" than "I'm sorry I offended you". He's very immature about criticism. But I know a lot of writers and artists who aren't famous at all, but who still think that every word they type or every brushstroke they lay down is precious. on writing sites like ff.net people say they want reviews and feedback but what they want 99.5% of the time is pats on the back and compliments. Nothing wrong with that, but if thats what you want, just say so.

It was never clear if Joyce owned the art gallery or not.

They were so ridiculously vague about that. But then Joyce was mostly a plot device in the early seasons and they really didn't care about her as a character per se. I assume that the Council did direct Giles to SD and probably had a hand in Joyce's move to that town, but how they managed that we don't know. Again, Joss and world-building are not mixy things.

Possibly the watchers kept the training slayers without much to harden them up and dependent on the watchers. They considered the slayers as their weapons against the demons and not much else.

I can imagine that a Watcher was traditionally responsible for his Slayer's care. Giles never had that with Buffy; and he's continually torn between being a Watcher and being a Father- figure and rather fails at both because he can't decide. So he does the safer thing in S6 and runs away. Giles doesn't deal well with emotions. Neither does Buffy (Anne) but in S6 she doesn't have the luxury or the means to leave.

I have a fanwank that I really think is pure fanwank but what must Buffy think, knowing that there was a Watcher (Nikki Wood's) who was so devoted to his Slayer that he adopted her son after her death? That it wasn't necessary for Giles to abandon Buffy and Dawn, that he could have stayed with them? Did he not love her enough or was she not lovable? (She already believes the latter), I think logically that would have to hurt and I can see that contributing to her shutting him out in LMPTM even if that's not what the writers intended.

[kudagirl]

I do remember them trying to find Hank when Joyce died. He was in Spain with his girlfriend. Then when Buffy was gone, Willow and the others tried to avoid letting the Buffybot talk to him on the phone. They didn't want him to know Buffy was gone so he wouldn't take Dawn. I don't think they really had to worry about it. He was long gone.

Giles tried to reason that if he stayed Buffy would still lean on him. He wanted her to shoulder all of the adult things she had to do. Yet, I think he was wrong. He could have waited till she got her bearings on things. She didn't have a job and was deep in debt. She needed help learning how to deal. Instead he left her with the Scoobies who just wanted her to be happy and strong Buffy. She was so lost.

[red_satin_doll]

I do remember them trying to find Hank when Joyce died. He was in Spain with his girlfriend.

*nods* I thought it was interesting that the spell meant to make everyone more protective of Dawn (specifically Buffy but given the fact that Joyce is sort of an "ideal mom" that season compared to S1-3, I assume it worked on her too) didn't do a thing on Hank. Probably part of Joss' trope of father figures who abandon their children.

There's still no reason that in story they couldn't have worked in Hank sending child support checks - in fact I can see someone like him (from what little we know) writing checks out of a sense of guilt and duty, or rationalizing that they don't want to see him and the money becomes a stand-in for time and attention. (re: tickets to the ice show and bouquet of flowers for Buffy in Helpless)

I do think in fact there are parallels between Hank and Riley (and Ted); I assume in my head Hank was very handsome (doesn't Joyce say that in PG?) and probably someone who was in athletics to some degree (track?) if not necessarily a superstar. Or someone who was a club president, just active enough and popular on campus. He's fair or sandy-haired, like Riley. (And I assume Joss also found him boring *lol*)

That Buffy mostly puts the blame on Hank for the divorce in CWDP signifies that she's stopped blaming herself for what she's not responsible for, which to me is a huge part of her arc - taking responsibility for what is hers, not for what isn't. Expecting others to do the same; it's understandable though that she she falls back into habit after the Potentials and responsibility get dumped in her lap again. (I like to think that also signifies that she's not blaming herself anymore for Riley but that's never stated. Again, I like that S7 is the first season she calls both the WC and the Initiative on her own - reaching out to them on her terms rather than the other way around.)

Yet, I think he was wrong. He could have waited till she got her bearings on things....She was so lost.

PREACH IT FROM THE MOUNTAINTOP, SISTER. ;-p Buffy's problem up to that point had never been being irresponsible - in little things, yes, like shrugging off homework or Giles' suggestions (esp early seasons, whereas after Helpless, ironically, she explicitly requested support on a deeper level: the Freshman, Something Blue, Intervention, ATW, TR, BoTN); she's taken on responsibility for the entire world and for her friends' approval for years. That's just Giles rationalizing again, and he's very good at that. I think he talks very very briefly about his family re: expectations on him in S1 or 2, but don't recall any mention of closeness with them? He rationalizes his behavior over and over through the series (with Jenny, in Helpless, The Freshman, TR, LMPTM); it's not OOC in S6-7.

And I think Giles is depressed for much of the show (grieving or not for Jenny - or rather what she represented to him; regretting Olivia leaving, lost opportunities, job loss.) It's just a milder form of Buffy's depression; he'd probably be diagnosed with "dysthemia".

In every situation I've known of where someone has depression log-term (not the just the blues, the real thing), with everyone I've talked to, it is ALWAYS someone who should be closest to them, someone in the immediate family (parent, spouse/partner) who can't deal with it. And oftentimes that person also has depression but won't own up to it, because there's a lot of shame and secrecy around it, and it's too frightening. When one person makes changes, then other people have to shift in response - and it implies the other person could deal with it, but doesn't want to.

With parents there's the additional factor in my experience of the parent blaming themselves, either for what they did/didn't do to "prevent" this, or for the notion that the child "inherited" it from them and what does their child's depression say about them? (Conversely, my dad committed suicide when I was three and I felt the shame from that for a long time - what did his actions say about me?)

It gets back to the notion of what is and isn't your responsibility; dysfunctional dynamics screw that up (just as with you being expected to care for your parents.