Happy Birthday Slaymesoftly!

[kudagirl]

I tried to get this to post on Jan. 25, but DW didn't want to play.
So here is your birthday post a bit early.

You are celebrating your birthday but the rest of us are
celebrating the anniversary of you arriving in the world
and making it a better, happier place for us.
Happy Birthday.

Comments

[kudagirl]

I haven't seen either of these theories posted so I can't speak about their opinions. I thought at first that he just wanted her to leave, but now after a few years I've changed my mind. Watching ATS and talking to James Marsters has given me new views of what I saw.

Comics are not canon to me. Joss says they are, but I view them as the original movie. Not canon to me. I do love some of the fan fiction that have been created by very talented authors in our fandom from parts of the comics. Season eight brought out the Bangels vs the Spuffy once again. The Bangels got excited and then destroyed by what the comics did to their couple. So far in season nine, Spuffy fans have been teased, but disappointed.

Season eight of the comics was almost as bad as what Fran Rubel Kuzui and Kaz Kuzui did to Joss' script for the movie. There are elements that build the storyline, but some of their plots ruin the characters. Buffy regressed in the comics. She was not someone we knew from the series.

I have no talent for photoshopping, but I can handle a photo generator pretty well. Thanks.

[red_satin_doll]

You've talked to JM in person? Neat. What did he say? Was it at a convention or in a work setting?

You've got my brain going with thinky-thoughts. (oh boy hang on kids...) Here's another thing about series tv: were Joss' intentions while he made Chosen and during S5 AtS the same or had he changed his mind? Was someone else in charge of AtS? Is there an element of retcon? Whose canon is canon: Joss, SMG, Marti, Jane, Drew? SMG stated back before S6 that she believed Angel would always be Buffy's "true love"; does she feel the same today? Do any of them?

It's hard to make absolute statements about canon when it comes to series tv, Things are always changing and evolving to fill up air time; you have SO many creative hands in the kitchen. There's the gap between intention, and what actually appears onscreen (hello, S6!); and how any two people interpret what they see, or even how one person interprets it this year vs how they did last year. (I haven't seen AtS so it's not part of my canon because I'm not familiar with it.) It's fascinating, but it muddles up questions of "canon" beyond objective facts, i.e. Buffy slept with four men in the course of the series; vampires cry tears of water, not blood; Warren accidentally killed Tara and then Willow murdered Warren in revenge. (Oh, no, wait, scratch that last one, if you believe the comics are canon)

Total agreement on the wreck that is the comics. I wouldn't wrap my fish in it because that would be an insult to the fish. (Also, you know, the ink.) I've had people try to argue with me that I MUST consider them canon because of Joss. Um, no. (See my rant above.)

In terms of Bangels being "destroyed" I've read on some boards that there are people who see S8 as affirming that Angel really really really was her "true love". WTF? I like to think those folks are in the minority because it makes no damn sense. (Please tell me they are in the minority. Or that I'm readiing hearsay.)

I really do think that in many ways S8 is a parody of fandom, of fanfiction tropes, of romantic tropes, of the very mindset of people who would read S8 and say "See? This proves that Angel was Buffy's true love all along!" I think Joss thinks he's being clever, but instead he comes off smarmy and smug, then utterly hurt that anyone wouldn't understand what he (and DH) was trying to say.

Except of course, that he's being vague as always, giving himself a hundred "outs", and there's the fact that "Bangel" is still a handy marketing tool. "You're into this romance stuff so fine, I'll give it to you but then I'll rub it in your faces and laugh at you about it."

And in terms of Spuffies - I know they (we? S7 is my "spuffy season") are disappointed but compared to Twangle, Spuffy came out smelling like a rose. (Maybe he actually does like Spuffy, or the corners of fandom he hangs out the most in, or sees the most, are dominated by Bangels? IDK

When fans tell me they're disapppointed by what he's doing with Buffy/Spike it implies that there's a possibility of a happy ending somewhere down the line - and Joss has NEVER been about that. At least not in BtVS, nor what I have read (not watched) about AtS. Everyone dies, everyone loses their lovers/mates, etc. Aside from Willow (and people dismiss Kennedy as a "rebound") no one standing at the edge of the Hellmouth at the end of Chosen is in a relationship with a lover/spouse. It's no accident.

So "Spike and Buffy snarking at each other on the fire escape never quite connecting but always coming back to one another" is as close as Joss is going to come to "romantic fulfillment" with those two characters. "Not ending up dead" is actually a happy ending in his world. In my opinion anyway.

I guess I know that if I want a continuation of the Spuffy story that I can believe and enjoy, there's fanfic, lots of it superb. In terms of "canon" (as opposed to "my headcanon") Buffy's story ends with Chosen.

What I really want to know is, with all the truly excellent - and free - pre and post-Chosen fanfic out there, why do people pay good money for those damn comics?

[red_satin_doll]

Re: the movie, I'd say what Joss did to his own story was worse. The movie didn't offend me or destroy beloved characters; it amused me once or twice, had an interesting dream sequence where Buffy imagines Lothos (or whatever his name was) in bed with her; I wished THAT had been more of the movie and the tone of that scene is preserved in the series. So at least there was something there to build upon, and the rest could be politely ignored.

But the comics? Joss is just destroying his own story, ripping apart the mythology of it and destroying beloved characters - because he can? Because he doesn't care? Because he's thumbing his nose at fandom? Because he's tired of Buffy, but feels compelled to keep her going because of demand? She made him rich and famous, or rather fans did, and he has a love/hate relationship with her and fandom? All of the above? The big question "Who is going to betray Buffy? Who is the one closest to her?" Why, Joss of course.

Rant over, thanks muchly. *climbs off soapbox*

[kudagirl]

Shippers are going to ship who they loved. Joss isn't a shipper. Never was, never will be. He will break your heart if you let him.

In the first season of ATS, Buffy showed up at Angel's office. Doyle who had visions asked Cordy about Buffy and Angel. Cordy said this: Let me explain the lore here, okay? They suffer, they fight, that's business as usual. They get groiny with one another, the world as we know it falls apart.. Cordy was right. It happened in Season Eight of the comics. The world almost ended and people died. Giles died. Magic was stripped from the world. Now on Angel's side of the comics they are trying to make it seem like Angel had a plan, but never got to explain it to Buffy. I call bull crap. It's a white wash to excuse Angel for his actions and to make it all Buffy's fault. They took Angel too far and now are trying to fix it.

The movie isn't canon for me. The comics aren't canon to me. Joss says the comics are canon, but he gave the writers a guide line of the story. The writers took it and gave it their own spin.

I've met several of the Buffy actors. I have gone to Dragon*Con three times so far. I met James several times and gone to his panels there. I also met Nicholas Brendon(Xander-who I don't like as a character or person), Charisma Carpenter (Cordy-so sweet and beautiful), Mercedes McNab (Harmony-she was very quiet in person), Julie Benz (Darla-lovely and very nice), Felicia Day (Vi-so nice and friendly), Eliza Dushku (Faith-loves to tease James), Nathan Fillion (Caleb-such a sweetie and loves to be silly) and Clare Kramer (Glory-so down to earth and loves to talk).

One of the writers for Angel said they talked about Buffy showing up and Spike leaving with her. I always liked Angel with Cordy. Cordy kept him in line. She brought out the best in Angel like Spike does for Buffy. Cordy and Spike were support systems for them. Buffy and Angel are a mess about to happen. Cordy grew up on ATS and became an amazing character. Of course, Joss killed Cordy off. Bangel maybe the fairy tale couple, but Angel/Cordy and Buffy/Spike were the real deals.

[red_satin_doll]

Shippers are going to ship who they loved. Joss isn't a shipper. Never was, never will be. He will break your heart if you let him.

Oh so true. That's why I really think that fans need to stop looking to the comics for some sort of fulfillment.

Today I read a really gorgeous little B/S/A story on fanfic.net, "Those Things" by TheFoxinator; and I don't ship that trio but after this story I just might. It's wonderful - and it reminds me, sadly, of the stand-alone comic in which Buffy dreams that Spike and Angel are making out to one another and ignoring her, while she dreams that she's married to Warren. And it's played for laughs. Sorry, but NOT FUNNY. At ALL. And it makes me really sad because in Chosen, it was Buffy who mentioned getting the two of them together "Maybe there could be some oil involved". Which I loved - it was a joke but also Buffy stating that she had a slashy fantasy (on network tv, yet) about her two vampire lovers. And yet ten years later, Joss Whedon has lost the courage of his convictions and reverts to making Buffy the "butt of the joke" and using her humiliation for the yuks?

Oh the link to the story: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/8932271/1/Those-Things

Have you read shipperx's superb, angry meta on the comics?
http://shipperx.livejournal.com/743174.html

Lots of righteous and right-on ranting there, (including my own.) as well as intelligent analysis. (Pretty much anything they have to say about the comics is spot-on.) The meta address the whitewashing specifically.

but Angel/Cordy and Buffy/Spike were the real deals.

And I would really love to see Cordy grow and develop on AtS (I watched a couple of eps and I didn't like her in btvs s1-2, but then felt for her in S3 after Xander's betrayal); I watched a couple of eps of AtS and thought, this is an interesting person! But then reading what happens to her - I don't think I want to get attached to the character and then go through that. I'm having a hard enough time with the way the comics humiliate and degrade Buffy, so no thanks. I'll stick to fanfic.

It's really nice to hear that most of the actors you've met have been so nice, and that you've gotten the chance to meet them! that's always a treat, isn't it?

[kudagirl]

I understand not wanting to see Cordy and how she ended. The thing about Cordy is she saw Angel for who he was and stood up to him. She called him on his BS and loved him anyways. It was a wonderful thing to see.

Most of the actors I've met have been delightful. Some are total jerks, but most aren't. There are videos on youtube of some of the panels. I fell for Spike on BTVS, but meeting James in person made me a fan of the man. He impressed me as being a kind, funny and amazing man. He is a bundle of energy at times. He has mellowed since he married Patricia. He is much happier these days.

I'll check out the links. I do love reading meta of all kinds.

[red_satin_doll]

I haven't watched the videos for the Paley '08 fest but I keep meaning to. I've read some of JM's website and his Q & A's and he certainly sounds like a smart man.

I adore btvs meta - it's what got me into the fandom long before fanfic. I've rec'd some on buffyverse top 5 if you're interested in more.

[kudagirl]

James is a sweet guy. I was first impressed by him while waiting for my photo with him. I watched him with a family who had a boy about ten. James took photo with the family and the boy by himself. Froggy who does the photos is a total jerk. He is famous for it. He kept rushing the photos and telling James to move on. Once the family had their photos, James followed them to the side and continue to talk to the boy giving him extra time to be with James. Froggy kept frowning and James just ignored him. That sealed the deal with me. James always gives kids extra attention. He is very good to his fans.

I'll check the meta you rec'd. I always enjoy different opinions about fandom. Sometimes they open me up to different views about things.

[red_satin_doll]

That is really nice to hear. Is this Froggy person someone who does photos regularly for conferences or what-all?

I once attended a Keith Urban concert because a friend had given me free tickets, (and like a lot of "country" artist, he is VERY attentive to his fans) and the opening act was a duo of two young women, a fairly new act, who the KU fans said weren't that good (compared to their guy). I remember they were good, but what I really remember is that a young girl (12?) with one leg in a cast got to visit backstage with them as a birthday gift, and the mom thanking their agent/mgr for how much time they'd spent with her daughter. I don't listen to country music, but I did notice that it's expected that acts build a close rapport with their fans, probably because country music used to be so "small" and relatively regional (based in Nashville), and maybe the whole "southern manners" thing.

And it struck me as very different from the expectations of other pop stars, or movie/tv stars who tend to keep a distance from fans, so that your description of James almost sounds extraordinary, which is too bad. (But again, he's had Q & A's on his blog from fans, so he definitely seems to go that extra mile.)

How long has he been married? (Also, have you ever met Amber Benson? Just curious.)

Do enjoy the meta - I'll probably add more recs if they're still accepting some; I found some terrific ones on The Funny Feminist blog via su_herald. I agree, other fans viewpoints can get me thinking about the show in new ways, even if I don't always agree with their points. (local_max sometimes writes long answers in convo threads about Willow esp that are metas in their own right.) I'm always on the lookout for more, although I really need to just keep writing my own.

I hope I'm not incoherent right now, btw; I'm very tired from pain meds for a recent injury and not sleeping well last night. (At least I hope it's the not sleeping. If the meds are making me tired, even though I've backed off them in recent weeks, that's more worrisome.) Doesn't help with the "wanting to write" bit.

[kudagirl]

I hope you are healing and getting better. Pain meds are almost as bad as what you are taking them to relieve. I have back pain so I know how difficult life can be while in pain.

I don't know about all cons, but Froggy does most of James' photo shoots. At Dragon*Con there are two photographers. Each have their own list of actors.

James has developed quite the following of fans. There are several who fly all over the world to be at a con when he is there. He loves it because the fans have formed friendships together. He wanted to be a community and he has. The fans go to see each other as well as him.

James married just over two years ago. He had dated Patricia, who likes to be called Jasmine, for several years. She is a bit younger than him and grew up in Germany. They seem very happy. His son, Sullivan, plays in James' band, Ghost Of The Robot. Sullivan looks so much like James. James is also raising his niece, his brother's child.

I would love to meet Amber. My best friend did meet her last year at Dragon*Con. Said she was very nice.

We have a huge group of county stars here in TX as well. I grew up just a few miles away from where Willie Nelson was raised. He would visit a friend of his in my home town. Austin has a major group of country western players. My ex burned me out on country music. It was all he would allow in the house or car when he was around. I can't stand to listen to it anymore. Just one of the reasons he is an ex.