I'm a thinker aren't I...cubaricanOctober 14 2005, 04:00:12 UTC
and no one can escape the fact that 'poor' and 'war' rhyme. in much the same way that 'attack' and 'Iraq' do. cut SoaD some slack on the lyrical prowess. it's just something catchy that people say without meaning or fully understanding, kinda like "Merry Christmas" or "Jihad," or "that's gay." however, with the decent pages of graphs and stuff, it is pretty easy to dispell the whole "poor" thing as a catchy myth. it's a very strong phrase that looks very narrowly at something truthful but magnifies it and blows it pretty out of proportion. it's a political statement and not literal fact. it's just a bumper sticker phrase, kinda like "The Power of Pride" or "Rush Limbaugh is really cool." it doesn't really mean anything, it's just there to invoke an emotion, an effect to support your stance on the war (or piss you off. whichever side you're on).
oh... and according to the data presented... this war in Iraq, apparently, started in 1999 and not in 2003. little off there, don't you think? isn't it a little shady to be using info dated prior to the war in question? I'd like to see the REAL data concerning the argument, not the magician's hand in his pocket stroking the unknown. and no, Bush did not start this war just to send the poor. looking at the lyric that literally is pretty silly. and I really doubt the artist's view it that way or intend to spread that kind of loaded message. and it's not their fault they have a young fan base that's quite possibly largely naive. just think, legions of dumb 14 year olds that listen to this and Emo. (and they're all young, rich and they're going to war! but they don't know why. makes sense now huh?) anyway, my point on the time frame issue is it's "why do we send the poor to war?" not "why do we send the poor to peace time?"
and which rich daddy isn't okay with sending their fledgling stock brokers and CEO's to the military during peace time anyway? come on. it's pretty hard to convince anybody to join up during war. except for people that really see it as an opportunity, people that need an opportunity. and really, honestly, joining the military is a great opportunity. but for some it's a bullet or shrapnel shards that they hoped would never come. getting a college education or money and experience is a pretty nice looking carrot. and for the disadvantaged that carrot seems pretty nice, considering that they would have a harder time paying for school or being awarded such opportunities. rich man thinks rich and poor man thinks poor, you know that. we all might be created equal but we sure as hell don't act like it or treat each other like it. an anarchist would definitely have a problem with that.
I just can't wait until all of this garbage is history, personally. and I hope the veils are lifted someday whenever that page is turned. we'll see repercussions for today and for yesterday, no worries there. I like thinking.
Re: more savage, less frankencubaricanOctober 14 2005, 15:47:37 UTC
my bad, I missed the first gulf war detail. there's nothing shady about the data or about it's time frame or origin, its application in this case is what's shady. it's like saying "they didn't send poor people to war during the gulf war." this data clearly supports that fact... but what about this war or other wars? using THAT particular data for THAT particular argument is focusing on something too small or unrelated entirely. I don't want to exclude the gulf war... but don't you think it's unfair to focus ONLY on gulf war data and not on present or previous correlations do debunk the song's potentially modern or time transcending statement? it IS shady to use data from one thing to support the "truths" of another. it's possible too that the song's statement is one on modern circumstances... data, in fact, left unrepresented in this present argument. it's like holding two cards, one in each hand and showing only the one in your right hand to someone and declaring that you are hold "a card." while it is true... there's more to the story and the other information is being over looked. that's what's shady, and that's what I meant about the magician's hand. it's almost like saying grunge sucks by using examples of bands influenced heavily by Nirvana as superior.
you're trying to asnwer the question the "poor" in general and "war" in general with very specific gulf war data. that's my point.
you're over looking, too, what I said about the "poor" being the average man. in the song it says "why can't presidents fight the war." honestly, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense when taken literally, being that presidents actually fight wars with their recruited or volunteer forces. I still think the song is just a general and emotionally driven protest against war. people convince themselves of many things, motivating themselves for war is amongst those things.
"and I really doubt the artist's view it that way or intend to spread that kind of loaded message." where's he's unintelligent in song might be filled up and supported better back stange. maybe, I don't know for sure. I for one, sure as hell, try to make my music intelligent. I'd kinda hope other musicians feel the same.
"it's a very strong phrase that looks very narrowly at something truthful but magnifies it and blows it pretty out of proportion. taken literally, it's a political statement and not literal fact. it's just a bumper sticker phrase. it's just there to invoke an emotion."
poor does not ALWAYS equal stupid. but Savage would have a thing or two to say about the illiterate border jumpers and all the inner city public school minority flunkies and similar "scum." but yeah, stupid does transcend the classes, the races too. and it's no joke that rich tend to be in power and not the poor... and somewhere in between is how people "deserve" those roles of power. racial profiling is "bad" but you can't deny the corellations of income and race with crime and education level. poor people steal cars, the well off just become the occassional serial killer.
rich doesn't equal evil either, you're right. but there are evil among the rich like big tobacco and enron, things like that. Bush is as holy as the pope in all of this... in that he's not actually infallible or ordained by god... these are the powers of men, not of God.
and besides. Savage and Franken, they've both been known to piss me off. I don't listen to either of them. and on the whole, I've listened to way more Savage than Franken. it's not my fault Franken sounds whiney and Savage turns me off (he's very aggressive and offensive).
and what I meant by garbage was America's nose deep in this region's eternal conflict. you're right, the middle east being a hot bed of fanaticism is very true, that area has been and always will be a source of crap for everyone. but we got dragged into this. I don't think we'll be occupying Iraq for the duration of our life times, that's what I meant. and Bush certainly won't be in president that long either. this era and flavor of polital descent is what I meant by garbage... and jeez... I hope the polls aren't near 50/50 for the rest of my life.
when are you moving, dude!?! we gotta get'er done.
and no one can escape the fact that 'poor' and 'war' rhyme. in much the same way that 'attack' and 'Iraq' do. cut SoaD some slack on the lyrical prowess. it's just something catchy that people say without meaning or fully understanding, kinda like "Merry Christmas" or "Jihad," or "that's gay." however, with the decent pages of graphs and stuff, it is pretty easy to dispell the whole "poor" thing as a catchy myth. it's a very strong phrase that looks very narrowly at something truthful but magnifies it and blows it pretty out of proportion. it's a political statement and not literal fact. it's just a bumper sticker phrase, kinda like "The Power of Pride" or "Rush Limbaugh is really cool." it doesn't really mean anything, it's just there to invoke an emotion, an effect to support your stance on the war (or piss you off. whichever side you're on).
oh... and according to the data presented... this war in Iraq, apparently, started in 1999 and not in 2003. little off there, don't you think? isn't it a little shady to be using info dated prior to the war in question? I'd like to see the REAL data concerning the argument, not the magician's hand in his pocket stroking the unknown. and no, Bush did not start this war just to send the poor. looking at the lyric that literally is pretty silly. and I really doubt the artist's view it that way or intend to spread that kind of loaded message. and it's not their fault they have a young fan base that's quite possibly largely naive. just think, legions of dumb 14 year olds that listen to this and Emo. (and they're all young, rich and they're going to war! but they don't know why. makes sense now huh?) anyway, my point on the time frame issue is it's "why do we send the poor to war?" not "why do we send the poor to peace time?"
and which rich daddy isn't okay with sending their fledgling stock brokers and CEO's to the military during peace time anyway? come on. it's pretty hard to convince anybody to join up during war. except for people that really see it as an opportunity, people that need an opportunity. and really, honestly, joining the military is a great opportunity. but for some it's a bullet or shrapnel shards that they hoped would never come. getting a college education or money and experience is a pretty nice looking carrot. and for the disadvantaged that carrot seems pretty nice, considering that they would have a harder time paying for school or being awarded such opportunities. rich man thinks rich and poor man thinks poor, you know that. we all might be created equal but we sure as hell don't act like it or treat each other like it. an anarchist would definitely have a problem with that.
I just can't wait until all of this garbage is history, personally. and I hope the veils are lifted someday whenever that page is turned. we'll see repercussions for today and for yesterday, no worries there. I like thinking.
Reply
it states right there in the article the data is from the first gulf war era (2001). no shadyness here.
poor does not equal stupid, and rich does not equal evil.
that's a commonly used very broad brush.
I'd check out this feed:
http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=poor_and_stupid
the garbage in current history is not going anywhere in our lifetime. things are only going to get worse.
Reply
you're trying to asnwer the question the "poor" in general and "war" in general with very specific gulf war data. that's my point.
you're over looking, too, what I said about the "poor" being the average man. in the song it says "why can't presidents fight the war." honestly, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense when taken literally, being that presidents actually fight wars with their recruited or volunteer forces. I still think the song is just a general and emotionally driven protest against war. people convince themselves of many things, motivating themselves for war is amongst those things.
"and I really doubt the artist's view it that way or intend to spread that kind of loaded message." where's he's unintelligent in song might be filled up and supported better back stange. maybe, I don't know for sure. I for one, sure as hell, try to make my music intelligent. I'd kinda hope other musicians feel the same.
"it's a very strong phrase that looks very narrowly at something truthful but magnifies it and blows it pretty out of proportion. taken literally, it's a political statement and not literal fact. it's just a bumper sticker phrase. it's just there to invoke an emotion."
poor does not ALWAYS equal stupid. but Savage would have a thing or two to say about the illiterate border jumpers and all the inner city public school minority flunkies and similar "scum." but yeah, stupid does transcend the classes, the races too. and it's no joke that rich tend to be in power and not the poor... and somewhere in between is how people "deserve" those roles of power. racial profiling is "bad" but you can't deny the corellations of income and race with crime and education level. poor people steal cars, the well off just become the occassional serial killer.
rich doesn't equal evil either, you're right. but there are evil among the rich like big tobacco and enron, things like that. Bush is as holy as the pope in all of this... in that he's not actually infallible or ordained by god... these are the powers of men, not of God.
and besides. Savage and Franken, they've both been known to piss me off. I don't listen to either of them. and on the whole, I've listened to way more Savage than Franken. it's not my fault Franken sounds whiney and Savage turns me off (he's very aggressive and offensive).
and what I meant by garbage was America's nose deep in this region's eternal conflict. you're right, the middle east being a hot bed of fanaticism is very true, that area has been and always will be a source of crap for everyone. but we got dragged into this. I don't think we'll be occupying Iraq for the duration of our life times, that's what I meant. and Bush certainly won't be in president that long either. this era and flavor of polital descent is what I meant by garbage... and jeez... I hope the polls aren't near 50/50 for the rest of my life.
when are you moving, dude!?! we gotta get'er done.
Reply
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