God Thoughs

[kruszer]

When it comes to faith vs doubt in God, I think my struggle is not so much with the academic and reason side of things. Although I do sense the need to resolve things more solidly in my intellect so that I at least have logic and facts to fall back on (not to mention the ability to reason more eloquently and effectively with non-believers), for

Comments

[hymnia]

So much empathy for this post. So many of my thoughts the last week or so have been over this same ground. How can I believe in and trust a God who leaves my most deeply heartfelt prayers unanswered for 13 years? I, too, recently had a "maybe I've finally found the man who will be my husband" opportunity dangled in front of me and then snatched away (although mine was much less concrete than yours, I think). So that has brought all of these painful thoughts creeping out more than ever.

I don't have any answers, either. But in times like these it does help a little to remember the struggles of Biblical heroes. I think of David and how awful his family life was. I think of Abraham and Sarah and Zechariah and Elizabeth, who endured long years (decades, probably) of childlessness, a much more shameful position in their culture than it is today. I think of the early Christ-followers, suffering under monstrous persecution. Of course, I think of Job.

Most of all, I think of Jacob, who wrestled with God, demanding a blessing, and got his hip wrenched as a result--and he remained injured the next day, and possibly longer. Maybe he was disabled the rest of his life. I don't know why that inspires me, but it does. I think it's because of what he said when he was wrestling, "I won't let go until you bless me." He got his blessing, there's no doubt about that. But he also suffered. I've heard some say the two go hand in hand. In fact, some say suffering--at least, suffering that is not primarily a consequence of foolish things we've done, but a result of circumstances over which we've had little to no control--is a sign of God's love, because "God disciplines those he loves." (Hebrews 12:6).

Anyway, I don't know how much comfort can be found in any of that. Those are just my rambling thoughts on the matter. I fully admit to having doubts, too (and quite a lot recently) about whether faith in God is really "worth it". OTOH, the "benefits" of losing my faith don't really amount to much, IMO. Okay, I could date and freely have sex with any guy, instead of holding out for A) a Christian guy, and B) marriage. But honestly...that idea doesn't even appeal to me that much. I mean, if I truly felt I had good reasons to abandon belief in God--or a God who is good and worth trusting--then I suppose I could warm up to the idea of living an "eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die" sort of lifestyle. But still, the hope of "abundant life" and eternal purpose and a deeper reality of a loving Creator, and all the most precious treasures of Christian faith--those are more valuable than anything, good or bad, that this life can throw at us.

And that's essentially what you have already said, I think. I don't have any new insight to offer beyond that--just empathy and a hope that he will answer both our prayers and send some comfort soon.

[kruszer]

"some say suffering--at least, suffering that is not primarily a consequence of foolish things we've done, but a result of circumstances over which we've had little to no control--is a sign of God's love, because "God disciplines those he loves." (Hebrews 12:6)"

This is an example of Christians "making excuses for God". God blesses you: he exists, and he loves you. God lets shit happen to you: he exists - he loves you!

Right... how convenient.

Seems to me that a parent who disciplined their kid the way God does, always making his kids cry and not helping them when they're devastated, watching them get hurt without stepping in... we wouldn't call that discipline. We'd call it abuse.

[hymnia]

That's a bit harsh. How, then, do you interpret that quote? To be honest, I'm feeling a little sketchy on that interpretation myself, as you could see by the way I prefaced it ("Some say..."). But there it is, right there in the Bible, so you can't write it off as just a product of modern Christianese. Whether it means quite what it sounds like, it must have some usefulness for how to address present suffering.

Anyway, the verse has been rolling around in my mind, and indeed, I did think bitterly of things like child abuse in relation to it. But I also thought of other ways that parents/teachers/authority figures "discipline" their charges--often by withholding things the one under their care would like to have, maybe for a time, or maybe indefinitely. As a teacher, I sometimes do that to my students, and I feel quite sure it's not "abuse"; nor is it necessarily punishment, as in many cases it's not something I give them as a consequence, but as a matter of course (like, for example, making them take a math test). Yet it may feel torturous to them, or even like punishment, because they don't understand its purpose.

I don't know. I'm not pretending I have the answers here, so there's no need to get defensive. I'm troubled by these things as well. These are just the thoughts that have been cycling around in me and are nearest the surface at the moment.

[kruszer]

Yeah but a lifetime of it? That's shitty discipline if the intended beloved isn't brought from one place to another. Constantly being pummeled with pain for a season to help one learn something or get to where they need to be might be discipline, for a lifetime it's abuse. I was just a little girl when the "discipline" began and it hasn't let up yet.

Just cause it's in the Bible doesn't mean there's a god or that he's good.

And what are we to make of that concept? Does God love Africans so much more than Americans? Born into poverty, hunger, sex-slavery and AIDS, only to die in pain - to what end or purpose are they being "disciplined"

If one wants to believe in a God of love it's easy to dismiss the evidence or make it fit neatly into God's goodness so that there's an excuse or a reason for all the bullshit that happens under God's watchful eye.

I'm not buying. I need a better answer. I'm not going to play the role of the wife who refuses to leave her asshole of an abusive husband because "he didn't mean it that way! He really does love me!" Wake up girl. That's not love.

[hymnia]

If God is real and what he promises is true, then the "lifetime" of suffering is only a very short part of our real, eternal lifetime. Going back to my teacher-student analogy, it's like we don't ever "graduate" until the end of this life. We are under the care of our Teacher our entire lives, and although there are times when school is enjoyable, the majority of it is hard work, and it can often be grueling. Our Teacher gives us very hard tasks to complete in order to prepare us for our future. (I say "the Teacher gives" but I don't know that we can really say God causes our difficulties--but at the very least, he allows them.)

I would say that in light of the whole story of the Bible, from the fall of humankind onward, the existence of human suffering, no matter how long-lasting or intense, is not that hard to explain. What is more difficult for me to explain is why some people, including some who seem to be faithful Christians, don't seem to suffer very much. Why do some get such a good deal compared to everyone else? And I'm speaking as someone who has had a pretty good deal. Granted, I find my state of prolonged singleness heart-wrenching, and my 13 years of unanswered prayers for a husband do indeed shake my faith. But beyond that, I haven't had to contend with most of the difficulties I've seen friends (including you) face, and I certainly haven't had to deal with the poverty, disease, and lack of opportunity suffered by the poorest of the poor in this world. To me, the problem isn't with heavy and even lifelong suffering, since the Bible virtually promises that, and most of God's faithful people throughout the Bible suffered enormous amounts of hardship. The problem as I see it is with the disparities in the amount of suffering between different people that seem to make no sense (to me at least)--like in your example of poor Africans vs. rich Americans. Personally, I find the idea that suffering is a sign of God's love discomforting, because if that's true--considering the amount of privilege I've been born into as an upper-middle-class white American from a stable two-parent household--it doesn't bode very well for my relationship with God, does it? Anyway, I'm not sure what to do with that, and maybe the idea of hardship=discipline=God's love is indeed flawed. As I said, I don't have the answer. These are just my thoughts right now. I'm troubled by the disparate levels of suffering, troubled by the emotional arguments against faith in God (which you have described in this post, and which, as I said, have been very much on my mind lately), troubled by the need for a better understanding of what is really the best way to live and if following God is really worth it. But I'm not prepared to give up years of faith, especially when, as you pointed out, there are good, rational reasons to believe, not to mention the huge impact it has had on my life over the years, and the positive things it has done for me in the past.

I'm not buying. I need a better answer. I'm not going to play the role of the wife who refuses to leave her asshole of an abusive husband because "he didn't mean it that way! He really does love me!" Wake up girl. That's not love.

What do you intend to do, then? You don't seem ready to walk away from your faith, either. How will you attempt to find a better answer?

Anyway, I do hope you find relief from your present trials (which I realize are mostly long-standing), and I also hope you find renewed faith in God and a clearer understanding of his purposes.