Meta: Burtonverse vs. Nolanverse, focused on Batman and Joker

[kowaiyoukai]

Title: Meta: Burtonverse vs. Nolanverse
Author: kowaiyoukai
Rating: PG-13
Fandom: Nolanverse, Burtonverse
Spoilers: Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, Batman, Batman Returns, Batman Forever.
Word Count: 4,694

Comments

[slythwolf]

The thing about Harley is, I'm pretty sure she was only created in the early 90s in the animated series. She seems to us like an established, really important part of the Joker's story, but she's really a newcomer in the grand scheme of things.

[greeniefru]

Yep. And then there was a story called 'Mad Love' that detailed their relationship. But yes, she's only a relatively recent invention.

Great post, I agreed with pretty much all of it. I like most of Burton's work but feel connect with Nolan's take on Batman a lot more.

Also, a note. The Killing Joke was published in the 80s. A few years before Batman the film came out. Tim Burton actually said that he read it and enjoyed it. So its influence was definitely out there. They just chose to go in a different direction with The Joker.

[kowaiyoukai]

Hmm. I'll have to look that story up.

Thanks. I'll edit the post to include The Killing Joke update. That's interesting that Burton read it and decided to do something else.

[symmetry]

Yeah I just checked this too, the Burton film was made in 1989, Harley wasn't created until 1992

[symmetry]

I really loved some of the points you brought up (my favorite is you bringing up that when Nolan!Joker uses a gun he is always a short distance from the victim) and I love your critique of Maggie Gyllenhaal as Rachel

[kowaiyoukai]

Thanks! I thought it was interesting that they killed from different distances. I think killing someone from a close distance is more terrifying, from an audience's perspective.

[daybreak25]

Because Jack Nicolson? Was Jack Nicolson in Joker makeup. He wasn't the character.

THANK YOU. THIS IS BASICALLY WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING FOR WEEKS NOW. EVEN TO PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT THERE.

[kowaiyoukai]

Yes, it's true. Jack was Jack during that whole movie--he was never IC. Sadly. :(

[shockd]

My opinion is probably a lot less valid as I'm only a casual fan of the series, but I can't imagine comparing the two separate series to one another (you did a good job, btw; a great read!). Both directors had different goals for their movie, not to mention vastly different styles to achieve those goals, and you can't begrudge Burton's version simply because it failed to compete with a successor hellbent on surpassing it anyway.

"One other thing about the Burtonverse!Harvey Dent-he's played be two different actors!" - Rachel Dawes is also played by two different people. I wonder why Nolan didn't see that coming :/ (there's totally a Tom Cruise joke there...). Now, if there were two different actors in the same movie, then I'd go WTF, but as it stands... the Joker himself will have to be recast, so it seems like a minuscule problem to me

[kowaiyoukai]

Thanks! :D I think Burton did what he set out to do--make a version of Batman that's dark, yet still holds on to the idea of what a comic book movie should be--funny, campy, over-the-top. There are some people who probably still prefer that version to Nolan's, especially since Burton was very careful aout the details in his Batman series

[shockd]

You know, I don't even remember a Harvey Dent other than Tommy Lee in the last set of movies, so comparing them may be a moot point. I actually personally believe that Maggie G did a better job than Katie Holmes; maybe that's because every time I see Katie I remember Dawson's Creek, and, well... O_o

As for the Joker; that character's rather lucky. The new actor will only have to duplicate Ledger's passion and the makeup will take care of the rest. (I have high hopes, at least...)

Ahahaha... I suppose being a movie star has its share of disappointments. Holmes will have to deal.

[kowaiyoukai]

There was a Harvey Dent in Batman, definitely, and I think the same actor might have reprised the role in Batman Returns--I'll have to check and see. I also think Maggie did a better job than Katie. She seemed to give Rachel a bit more character, I guess.

Yeah, you're right. As long as the actor can mimic Heath's movements and voice believably, the audience will buy it.

:P

[rose_sparrow]

This was really interesting, and I'm glad you brought up the thing about Dent in the Burton!verse, because it made it seem like Burton didn't know about the comics.

Personally, I agree--TDK is better than the original, I think because it captures the darkness of the original comics better than Burton's. Nonetheless, I still have a soft spot for Nicklson, even though Ledger was AMAZING. It kind of bums me out--the idea that if they use the Joker again, they'll have to find a new actor, because who can pull off that in the same way.

Anywho, rambling now. Just wanted to tell you that this was a very interesting read.

[kowaiyoukai]

Thanks! Yeah, I thought it was a bit crazy that he didn't plan ahead for Harvey to become Two-Face. But who knows? Maybe he did know and the actor didn't want to do it.

I do think that, although the Burton movies have a darker atmosphere, the tone of the Nolan movies is darker and fits better with the tone of the overall series. Ledger was so great--I can only hope if they replace him, they'll find someone who does a good job. Then again, you know there's already people planning to mimic the Joker. I'm sure there has to be at least ONE person out there who can look and act the part.

Thanks again! :D

[shockd]

Sorry to interject, but Burton was apparently never much of a comic book fan. His Batman knowledge, as I understand, was pretty much exclusively secondhand. So, maybe he really didn't know about the importance of Dent as a continuity issue. :/

Then there's the idea that there was the possibility the movie may flop and plans for a sequel scrapped (and therefore the "continuity be damned!" mentality).

I totally agree with you about Jack, btw: Ledger was superb, but so was Nicholson in his own gangster-ish way. :)

[kowaiyoukai]

See, I didn't know that Burton had never read the comics. That doesn't make much sense to me. Why would he agree to do a Batman movie without being a fan? Yes, the tone and storyline of the comics seem like something that would attract him, but wouldn't you expect a director to do some research?

Good point. I mean, I just re-watched Batman, and I like it less every time I see it (which is saying something because I really disliked it the first time around). So, maybe they were waiting to see on the Two-Face front.

I think Ledger beats Nicholson hands down. But, to be fair, Nicholson was directed by a man who had no direct contact with the comics, and so maybe he would have been better if Burton had more personal knowledge about the series. I think the idea of the Joker being very gangster is amusing, maybe as a spin-off comic or fanfic, but not for the movie. I heart the crazy Joker! :D