Buffy: Belated Buffy/Spike wrap up post after finishing the season
I started typing this before and didn't finish it and now it's up to four posts. Gadzooks and odds bodikins! I'd better post it now before it becomes longer than War and Peace!
Chosen was the end of season 7 of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and also the end of the series as a whole. There's no other show that I've watched that many number of seasons - I usually give up after the third season or so because I'm so fickle or it's hard to retain interest because it's hard to keep coming up with new story lines. Buffy was quite different. There were some episodes I hated, some episodes that weren't as strong as others, but in general the writers were able to come up with fresh ideas and quirky dialogue that remained strong throughout the seven seasons. Now that I've seen all the episodes, I feel like pondering Spike/Buffy some more.
There are spoilers here for the whole series.
I went and dug up some dead threads on a Buffy discussion forum and read the endless debates about:
1. Did Buffy ever forgive Spike for his attempted rape in Seeing Red
2. Did Buffy ever love Spike
3. Was Buffy lying in Chosen when she told Spike she loved him
Gack.
Some of the theories (not mine!):
Forgiveness
Buffy never forgave Spike. It was war, she needed back-up. It was for that reason she kept him alive and didn't let Wood kill him. The "mission is everything". No matter how Spike deserved Wood's revenge on him, Spike was useful and had to be kept alive to help fight the First Evil.
Love
I've read quite a few different views on this
The thoughts on the different episodes are here. All very long I'm afraid.
Thoughts on Potential, The Killer In Me, First Date
Thoughts on Get it Done, Storyteller, Lies my parents told me, Dirty Girls, Empty Places
Thoughts on Touched, End of Days and Chosen
Forgiveness
I think that Buffy forgave Spike. The characters in Buffy are full of forgiveness. All of the Scoobies at one point of have tried to kill/harm the others or end the world. Giles has 'forgiven' Angel/Angelus from killing Jenny, the love of his life. That was awful.
I know I'm putting it a little strongly, but Willow basically roofied and raped Tara if you look at it from a certain point of view. Would Tara have slept with Willow in 'Once more with feeling' if not for the spell of forgetfulness? I don't think so.
Willow's tried to end the world, she's killed a human being, as has Giles although no one knows about that. They've all tried to kill one another, Anya has slaughtered and tortured a large number of humans …… Oz gobbled at people. Even Buffy has tried to kill her beloved friends.
Angel's list of crimes is fairly extensive as well - in fact, I'd argue that his crimes appear to be worse than Spike's because he was around for longer and he took a special kind of pleasure in his cruelty - his mens rea was probably more developed than Spike's.
Ergo, I'm not saying that any of it is defensible - I'm just saying that all of them have done pretty terrible things at different times while under the thrall of powerful magics or demons and they all seem to be able to forgive one another.
Even in the episode Seeing Red itself, Buffy doesn't let Xander run after Spike to try to kill him. After it happens, she even trusts Spike to look after Dawn and takes Dawn to his crypt for him to baby-sit her little sister. Spike's gone by then and she has to leave Dawn with Clem, but still. It's clear that she knew that Spike's actions were a form of insanity - that he was out of his mind, just as she had been when she engaged in a relationship with him.
Later in the season, in the episode Touched, Buffy is the one who asks Spike to stay and "just hold me" - it wasn't his idea, he was going to walk out of the room and come back later. Even after she asks him to stay, he was going to sit in the chair and watch over her. She was the one who asked him to lie on the bed and hold her.
She trusted him to just hold her so that she could sleep and rest - trusted that he wouldn't take advantage.
I think that it would have been impossible for her to have slept and asked him to be there if she didn't trust him and didn't forgive him for what he had done.
Love
I see the love between them. Buffy did love Spike by the end of the series. She saw him as a man, saw him as a champion, saw him as a person and she did love and trust him.
Buffy/Spike in season 7 is so different from any other season. They have so many quiet moments together. Gentle touching that has nothing sexual about it - although I like to think that if he had escaped with Buffy, perhaps they could have resumed their physical relationship. The way Buffy looks at Spike in season 7 is without fear. She trusts him. She always sided with him against her friends and she knew that he sided with her as well. In the episode Empty Places, when everyone betrays her, she demands: "Is that why you sent Spike away, to ambush me?" When Spike returns, he's the one that attacks them all for what they've done and despises them for their betrayal.
For me, Spike's path to redemption was far more difficult than Angel's and touched me more. Angel needed a soul to change, Spike started his path of redemption at an earlier stage and of his own volition. Angelus never wanted his soul, he never really wanted to change. It was a gypsy curse that forced the situation upon him. Spike took active steps to change. Spike retains the hopeless romanticism that he had in life - he remained true to Drusilla for years, he loved her and worshipped her. When he met Buffy, he was drawn to her and attracted and although it took a long time for it to develop into love - the respect and admiration was there from the start. Even though he wanted to kill her ;)
In Chosen when Angel confronts her about Spike, Buffy says "he's in my heart".
Her feelings for Spike are very different from her feelings for Angel or Riley. The Buffy/Spike love is very special because the feelings have developed over the course of five seasons - presumably that corresponds to five years? She's 'known' Spike longer than Angel or Riley.
It's been a very rocky relationship, he's always been honest with her, he has known the darker side of her that others have ignored or denied.
When Buffy finally tells Spike she loves him, I choose to believe that she is telling the truth. I think she respects and cares for him too much simply to lie to him to make him feel better. He's always known when she's lying and I don't think Buffy thinks that Spike is stupid.
When he denies that she's telling the truth, there could be a few reasons. It's possible that it's his feelings of unworthiness coming to the surface again. Alternatively, it's possible that was trying to be unselfish - 'no you don't love me like that, don't be sad that I'm dying - move on with your life.' I think he realised that there was nothing to be gained for her in loving him when he was about to die and leave and that her life was already filled with memories of times and people gone by.
Perhaps it was his rather vain attempt at freeing her from feelings, obligations and memories - although naturally simply telling someone something doesn't make it so.
:'(
It amuses me that notwithstanding my adoration of Buffy/Spike, I have also become a Spike/Dana shipper ;) I blame Stargate Atlantis, without a doubt it was that show that started me on my multi-shipper tendencies. :D I think it was Battlestar Galactica that started me on my non-canon shipping ways, but it was SGA who made me fickle ;)
Chosen was the end of season 7 of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and also the end of the series as a whole. There's no other show that I've watched that many number of seasons - I usually give up after the third season or so because I'm so fickle or it's hard to retain interest because it's hard to keep coming up with new story lines. Buffy was quite different. There were some episodes I hated, some episodes that weren't as strong as others, but in general the writers were able to come up with fresh ideas and quirky dialogue that remained strong throughout the seven seasons. Now that I've seen all the episodes, I feel like pondering Spike/Buffy some more.
There are spoilers here for the whole series.
I went and dug up some dead threads on a Buffy discussion forum and read the endless debates about:
1. Did Buffy ever forgive Spike for his attempted rape in Seeing Red
2. Did Buffy ever love Spike
3. Was Buffy lying in Chosen when she told Spike she loved him
Gack.
Some of the theories (not mine!):
Forgiveness
Buffy never forgave Spike. It was war, she needed back-up. It was for that reason she kept him alive and didn't let Wood kill him. The "mission is everything". No matter how Spike deserved Wood's revenge on him, Spike was useful and had to be kept alive to help fight the First Evil.
Love
I've read quite a few different views on this
- Buffy was fooling herself. She never loved Spike at all, she just thought she did. He knew that she could never love him.
- Buffy's final words were last minute comfort to make Spike happy because he was about to die and nothing more. Spike knew that it was a lie. He could sense it. Furthermore, Buffy didn't look sad when she looked back at Sunnydale, she looked quite happy ie. didn't care that Spike was dead.
- Spike thought that Buffy could love him until he saw her with Angel and it was then that he realised that Buffy could never love him.
- Buffy could never fool Spike no matter how hard she tried. For some reason, he can tell when she is lying and I think he could tell in 'Chosen' that she was lying when she said she loved him.
- Buffy didn't love Spike when she told him she did. Spike knew this and was finally mature enough to realise this and tell Buffy she didn't and he did it in a way not to make her feel bad.
- Buffy loved Spike, but it wasn't an "in love" way. It was respect, gratitude, and friendship that bound them in the end.
The thoughts on the different episodes are here. All very long I'm afraid.
Thoughts on Potential, The Killer In Me, First Date
Thoughts on Get it Done, Storyteller, Lies my parents told me, Dirty Girls, Empty Places
Thoughts on Touched, End of Days and Chosen
Forgiveness
I think that Buffy forgave Spike. The characters in Buffy are full of forgiveness. All of the Scoobies at one point of have tried to kill/harm the others or end the world. Giles has 'forgiven' Angel/Angelus from killing Jenny, the love of his life. That was awful.
I know I'm putting it a little strongly, but Willow basically roofied and raped Tara if you look at it from a certain point of view. Would Tara have slept with Willow in 'Once more with feeling' if not for the spell of forgetfulness? I don't think so.
Willow's tried to end the world, she's killed a human being, as has Giles although no one knows about that. They've all tried to kill one another, Anya has slaughtered and tortured a large number of humans …… Oz gobbled at people. Even Buffy has tried to kill her beloved friends.
Angel's list of crimes is fairly extensive as well - in fact, I'd argue that his crimes appear to be worse than Spike's because he was around for longer and he took a special kind of pleasure in his cruelty - his mens rea was probably more developed than Spike's.
Ergo, I'm not saying that any of it is defensible - I'm just saying that all of them have done pretty terrible things at different times while under the thrall of powerful magics or demons and they all seem to be able to forgive one another.
Even in the episode Seeing Red itself, Buffy doesn't let Xander run after Spike to try to kill him. After it happens, she even trusts Spike to look after Dawn and takes Dawn to his crypt for him to baby-sit her little sister. Spike's gone by then and she has to leave Dawn with Clem, but still. It's clear that she knew that Spike's actions were a form of insanity - that he was out of his mind, just as she had been when she engaged in a relationship with him.
Later in the season, in the episode Touched, Buffy is the one who asks Spike to stay and "just hold me" - it wasn't his idea, he was going to walk out of the room and come back later. Even after she asks him to stay, he was going to sit in the chair and watch over her. She was the one who asked him to lie on the bed and hold her.
She trusted him to just hold her so that she could sleep and rest - trusted that he wouldn't take advantage.
I think that it would have been impossible for her to have slept and asked him to be there if she didn't trust him and didn't forgive him for what he had done.
Love
I see the love between them. Buffy did love Spike by the end of the series. She saw him as a man, saw him as a champion, saw him as a person and she did love and trust him.
Buffy/Spike in season 7 is so different from any other season. They have so many quiet moments together. Gentle touching that has nothing sexual about it - although I like to think that if he had escaped with Buffy, perhaps they could have resumed their physical relationship. The way Buffy looks at Spike in season 7 is without fear. She trusts him. She always sided with him against her friends and she knew that he sided with her as well. In the episode Empty Places, when everyone betrays her, she demands: "Is that why you sent Spike away, to ambush me?" When Spike returns, he's the one that attacks them all for what they've done and despises them for their betrayal.
For me, Spike's path to redemption was far more difficult than Angel's and touched me more. Angel needed a soul to change, Spike started his path of redemption at an earlier stage and of his own volition. Angelus never wanted his soul, he never really wanted to change. It was a gypsy curse that forced the situation upon him. Spike took active steps to change. Spike retains the hopeless romanticism that he had in life - he remained true to Drusilla for years, he loved her and worshipped her. When he met Buffy, he was drawn to her and attracted and although it took a long time for it to develop into love - the respect and admiration was there from the start. Even though he wanted to kill her ;)
In Chosen when Angel confronts her about Spike, Buffy says "he's in my heart".
Her feelings for Spike are very different from her feelings for Angel or Riley. The Buffy/Spike love is very special because the feelings have developed over the course of five seasons - presumably that corresponds to five years? She's 'known' Spike longer than Angel or Riley.
It's been a very rocky relationship, he's always been honest with her, he has known the darker side of her that others have ignored or denied.
When Buffy finally tells Spike she loves him, I choose to believe that she is telling the truth. I think she respects and cares for him too much simply to lie to him to make him feel better. He's always known when she's lying and I don't think Buffy thinks that Spike is stupid.
When he denies that she's telling the truth, there could be a few reasons. It's possible that it's his feelings of unworthiness coming to the surface again. Alternatively, it's possible that was trying to be unselfish - 'no you don't love me like that, don't be sad that I'm dying - move on with your life.' I think he realised that there was nothing to be gained for her in loving him when he was about to die and leave and that her life was already filled with memories of times and people gone by.
Perhaps it was his rather vain attempt at freeing her from feelings, obligations and memories - although naturally simply telling someone something doesn't make it so.
:'(
It amuses me that notwithstanding my adoration of Buffy/Spike, I have also become a Spike/Dana shipper ;) I blame Stargate Atlantis, without a doubt it was that show that started me on my multi-shipper tendencies. :D I think it was Battlestar Galactica that started me on my non-canon shipping ways, but it was SGA who made me fickle ;)