Carrie/Quinn: replying to a comment by floramanu
Homeland fan floramanu always leaves the most fascinating, thought-provoking comments on fic. Latest one is for my season 3 fic Always on Her Own which was a missing scene set at the end of episode 3.05 The Yoga Play - I was trying to explore the thoughts that had to be running through Quinn's mind when he discovered that Carrie was gone. At the time, Saul's insouciant: "She's always been on her own" really bugged me.
floramanu has said this:
Thank you for the link, Koala! Besides the paragraph about "seen Carrie at her worst" is so right on, I also noticed these two places:
"When he finally meets her for the first time, he feels as though he has always known her." - isn't this what Fara said to Quinn in S4?
And this one, I love this one: "Carrie Mathison cares and when he's around her, he finds that he cares as well."
That's exactly how I felt re-watching S3.
Koala, the most beautiful thing about Carrie and Quinn's relationship to me is the trust between them - I think that's the foundation of any lasting relationship. That's why I love your writing so much because I think your writing really captures that. Somewhere, somehow, Carrie started trusting Quinn (Think about it, Quinn started showing up in 2.04, and Carrie already trusted him in 2.10 or 2.11 after escaping from Abu Nazir - that's pretty fast for Carrie to trust someone), and ever since then, not a moment of doubt. Like Quinn said, he's extremely reliable - Carrie definitely got a feel of that. The same way for Quinn, seeing how Carrie works and how dedicated she is to her work and her country, yes, Quinn had worries about her sometimes getting too crazy and out of line, but never once did he doubt her. That's quite amazing for two people who are used to be on their own and learned not to trust anyone. I mean, in S3, trust was even an issue between Saul and Carrie, but not for Carrie and Quinn.
In Carrie's chaotic life, what can be more appealing than to have someone so reliable, so steady, so there for her no matter what? As a woman, she can't feel safer to be with a man who clearly admires and respects her (said from the first meeting - I like your work; and like others also said, after knowing her a little more, he never again judged her for her romance with Brody), who has seen her worst but still holds her tightly, who understands and knows her like they've known each other for life, who trusts her on her own but is always there to protect her and let her fall... There's nothing more assuring for a woman to know that you can just be you, the good you, the bad you, the smart you, the dumb you, the whatever you... and you are still adored by the man. Carrie can just be her and has always just been her in front of Quinn, and I'm just so happy for Carrie to have that.
On the other hand, sometimes, I wish Quinn would share more with Carrie (maybe he did, just not detailed in the show), because other than he sometimes couldn't find justifications to do his job, to kill people, and he wants to quit, and he messed up his opportunity of being a good parent, I don't know what he meant when after the kiss, he said to Carrie, "You know mine." (in reply to Carrie saying, you know my shit). I mean for the three years they have been working together, it seems that he knows every little thing about Carrie, but Carrie (or maybe just we, I sure hope they two talk some time off the screen) knew little about his world - other than he's great at his job and his gaze on Carrie. I don't know where I'm going, maybe just worry has Carrie seen Quinn at his worst yet?
Also, Koala, do you have an interpretation of what Carrie meant when she said "I'm not sure I like to be watched by you, Quinn." in 3.05 before she's taken by Javadi's guys? I rewatched that conversation a couple of times today and wanted to figure out what that comment was supposed to convey... Maybe I'm just thinking too much...
Lots of things to think about in this fic comment, floramanu.
the most beautiful thing about Carrie and Quinn's relationship to me is the trust between them - I think that's the foundation of any lasting relationship.
I couldn't agree more with this statement. I think I've written about it before - can't dig up up off the top of my head, but I think I said that I was happy for them to stay friends/trusted colleages. Even though I am so shippy, it was fine by me for them to stay in a positive, trusting relationship because Carrie Mathison is one of the loneliest, most misunderstood people in the world and she trusts Quinn and he believes in her and that is beautiful. My hope was that she would also be someone would be there for him as well - that didn't really show up until the end of season 4, but it did finally manifest (to my relief) because the only person more lonely than Carrie is Quinn - and his tuna of loneliness.
Somewhere, somehow, Carrie started trusting Quinn (Think about it, Quinn started showing up in 2.04, and Carrie already trusted him in 2.10 or 2.11 after escaping from Abu Nazir - that's pretty fast for Carrie to trust someone), and ever since then, not a moment of doubt. Like Quinn said, he's extremely reliable - Carrie definitely got a feel of that. The same way for Quinn, seeing how Carrie works and how dedicated she is to her work and her country, yes, Quinn had worries about her sometimes getting too crazy and out of line, but never once did he doubt her. That's quite amazing for two people who are used to be on their own and learned not to trust anyone. I mean, in S3, trust was even an issue between Saul and Carrie, but not for Carrie and Quinn.
I actually hadn't thought about it that way - the swiftness with which Carrie comes to trust Quinn. I mean there's a lot of discussion between them in season 2 about various theories, about Roya etc and Quinn's her go-to guy when she wants to discuss something, not Saul. I think deep down she knows that Saul manipulates her and uses her - he sees her as a useful asset but Quinn (despite his mysterious origins) is someone she can actually trust. Despite all the craziness, I think they recognise kindred spirits in one another, which sounds really hokey but I find myself believing it because the actors make it work and I guess the writers of the shows have done it, too. He hasn't let her down, too because he has saved her life and also saved her from herself on more than a few occasions.
I love what you have said about letting her fall - because yeah, he does that and he gets angry at her but he'd never bail on her. The closet he came to not being there for her was his refusal at the end of episode 4.02 to go back to Islamabad, but he couldn't hold to that. When Carrie begged him to come back and help her, he had to come back and even when he was so angry and frustrated with her for sleeping with Aayan and crossing that line, he still stuck by her. What I love is that in another person, that would come across as being weak or spineless, but Rupert Friend manages to convey it in a way that Quinn's still his own person, he isn't weak - he's just able to judge but still accept and support and try to guide Carrie back to the right path... maybe it's because he's been on the wrong path. Rupert Friend said in an interview that it seemed weird to have a black ops guy like Quinn being a moral compass but that perhaps it was the fact that he had done such bad things that it allowed him to see things clearly and pass moral judgment.
On the other hand, sometimes, I wish Quinn would share more with Carrie (maybe he did, just not detailed in the show), because other than he sometimes couldn't find justifications to do his job, to kill people, and he wants to quit, and he messed up his opportunity of being a good parent, I don't know what he meant when after the kiss, he said to Carrie, "You know mine." (in reply to Carrie saying, you know my shit). I mean for the three years they have been working together, it seems that he knows every little thing about Carrie, but Carrie (or maybe just we, I sure hope they two talk some time off the screen) knew little about his world - other than he's great at his job and his gaze on Carrie.
I agree. Much as I loved season 3, I hated how one-way it was, how oblivious Carrie was - not necessarily to the 'love' in Quinn's eyes but to his pain. He was in emotional agony for much of season 3 because of his killing of the child Carlos Cedeño in "Tinman is Down" but Carrie only ever saw her own (and Brody's) pain and problems. To be honest, I think she remains oblivious and only starts seeing his pain towards the latter part of season 4!!! It really takes her that long. In the episode where he goes to clone Ghazi's phone, she's definitely worried about him.... that was yet another instance of her using him though. Good old Quinn, always gets the job done etc ... That's why I wrote Destruction, ie Carrie like everyone else finds him useful, really good at his job ... but doesn't realise that he's burning out badly... I think for all of season 2 and 3, Carrie was just so single-minded and obsessed. Her whole world revolved around Brody and she saw the world through her Brody-lens. It wasn't deliberate, she just had no room in her universe for anything else.
That being said, I have had a few stabs at their off-screen conversations and having her 'care' about stuff other than Brody, but I had to be a bit cautious not to go too out of charater. There's:
I don't know where I'm going, maybe just worry has Carrie seen Quinn at his worst yet?
I think she has. Just a few things off the top of my head:
do you have an interpretation of what Carrie meant when she said "I'm not sure I like to be watched by you, Quinn." in 3.05 before she's taken by Javadi's guys? I rewatched that conversation a couple of times today and wanted to figure out what that comment was supposed to convey...
I'm not sure to be honest! I think in that episode, she's still got a little bit of antipathy towards him. She trusts him completely. Have you read Phone Surveillance? My take on it is that she trusts him but doesn't necessarily like him at that point, so it makes her uneasy to think that he's running surveillance on her. I think his comment about being at at a safe distance is also quite interesting. Is he joking with her or does he think that he's a danger to her? Is he trying to reassure her? That scene did my head in to be honest - it was so intimate, her on the phone in the dark in her sleep where, him down the road watching over her - the camera so close on his eyes and mouth ... it felt so close and intimate and I couldn't tell if it was shot like that simply to be stylish and cool-looking or if they were trying to make it romantic. It certainly felt romantic to me and my shipper heart was going wild for it, but I knew that Carrie was still 100% all about Brody ....
Anyway, thanks for the comment! :) You need to set up an LJ account, methinks!!
floramanu has said this:
Thank you for the link, Koala! Besides the paragraph about "seen Carrie at her worst" is so right on, I also noticed these two places:
"When he finally meets her for the first time, he feels as though he has always known her." - isn't this what Fara said to Quinn in S4?
And this one, I love this one: "Carrie Mathison cares and when he's around her, he finds that he cares as well."
That's exactly how I felt re-watching S3.
Koala, the most beautiful thing about Carrie and Quinn's relationship to me is the trust between them - I think that's the foundation of any lasting relationship. That's why I love your writing so much because I think your writing really captures that. Somewhere, somehow, Carrie started trusting Quinn (Think about it, Quinn started showing up in 2.04, and Carrie already trusted him in 2.10 or 2.11 after escaping from Abu Nazir - that's pretty fast for Carrie to trust someone), and ever since then, not a moment of doubt. Like Quinn said, he's extremely reliable - Carrie definitely got a feel of that. The same way for Quinn, seeing how Carrie works and how dedicated she is to her work and her country, yes, Quinn had worries about her sometimes getting too crazy and out of line, but never once did he doubt her. That's quite amazing for two people who are used to be on their own and learned not to trust anyone. I mean, in S3, trust was even an issue between Saul and Carrie, but not for Carrie and Quinn.
In Carrie's chaotic life, what can be more appealing than to have someone so reliable, so steady, so there for her no matter what? As a woman, she can't feel safer to be with a man who clearly admires and respects her (said from the first meeting - I like your work; and like others also said, after knowing her a little more, he never again judged her for her romance with Brody), who has seen her worst but still holds her tightly, who understands and knows her like they've known each other for life, who trusts her on her own but is always there to protect her and let her fall... There's nothing more assuring for a woman to know that you can just be you, the good you, the bad you, the smart you, the dumb you, the whatever you... and you are still adored by the man. Carrie can just be her and has always just been her in front of Quinn, and I'm just so happy for Carrie to have that.
On the other hand, sometimes, I wish Quinn would share more with Carrie (maybe he did, just not detailed in the show), because other than he sometimes couldn't find justifications to do his job, to kill people, and he wants to quit, and he messed up his opportunity of being a good parent, I don't know what he meant when after the kiss, he said to Carrie, "You know mine." (in reply to Carrie saying, you know my shit). I mean for the three years they have been working together, it seems that he knows every little thing about Carrie, but Carrie (or maybe just we, I sure hope they two talk some time off the screen) knew little about his world - other than he's great at his job and his gaze on Carrie. I don't know where I'm going, maybe just worry has Carrie seen Quinn at his worst yet?
Also, Koala, do you have an interpretation of what Carrie meant when she said "I'm not sure I like to be watched by you, Quinn." in 3.05 before she's taken by Javadi's guys? I rewatched that conversation a couple of times today and wanted to figure out what that comment was supposed to convey... Maybe I'm just thinking too much...
Lots of things to think about in this fic comment, floramanu.
the most beautiful thing about Carrie and Quinn's relationship to me is the trust between them - I think that's the foundation of any lasting relationship.
I couldn't agree more with this statement. I think I've written about it before - can't dig up up off the top of my head, but I think I said that I was happy for them to stay friends/trusted colleages. Even though I am so shippy, it was fine by me for them to stay in a positive, trusting relationship because Carrie Mathison is one of the loneliest, most misunderstood people in the world and she trusts Quinn and he believes in her and that is beautiful. My hope was that she would also be someone would be there for him as well - that didn't really show up until the end of season 4, but it did finally manifest (to my relief) because the only person more lonely than Carrie is Quinn - and his tuna of loneliness.
Somewhere, somehow, Carrie started trusting Quinn (Think about it, Quinn started showing up in 2.04, and Carrie already trusted him in 2.10 or 2.11 after escaping from Abu Nazir - that's pretty fast for Carrie to trust someone), and ever since then, not a moment of doubt. Like Quinn said, he's extremely reliable - Carrie definitely got a feel of that. The same way for Quinn, seeing how Carrie works and how dedicated she is to her work and her country, yes, Quinn had worries about her sometimes getting too crazy and out of line, but never once did he doubt her. That's quite amazing for two people who are used to be on their own and learned not to trust anyone. I mean, in S3, trust was even an issue between Saul and Carrie, but not for Carrie and Quinn.
I actually hadn't thought about it that way - the swiftness with which Carrie comes to trust Quinn. I mean there's a lot of discussion between them in season 2 about various theories, about Roya etc and Quinn's her go-to guy when she wants to discuss something, not Saul. I think deep down she knows that Saul manipulates her and uses her - he sees her as a useful asset but Quinn (despite his mysterious origins) is someone she can actually trust. Despite all the craziness, I think they recognise kindred spirits in one another, which sounds really hokey but I find myself believing it because the actors make it work and I guess the writers of the shows have done it, too. He hasn't let her down, too because he has saved her life and also saved her from herself on more than a few occasions.
- tried to help her during the Yoga Play when her Yoga Play almost failed
- went in after her when Javadi's men grabbed her, even though Saul said no
- agreed to help her in Gerontian even though he just said he wanted out
- shot her in the arm to stop her screwing things up and also he didn't want someone else shooting her
- spoke up for her to ask why she wasn't being recalled from Iran (forgot the ep name)
- appears to have been there for her in the missing four months in The Star
- rescued her from the angry mob in 4.01
- came back to help her in Islamabad despite himself
- stopped her exploding Saul
I love what you have said about letting her fall - because yeah, he does that and he gets angry at her but he'd never bail on her. The closet he came to not being there for her was his refusal at the end of episode 4.02 to go back to Islamabad, but he couldn't hold to that. When Carrie begged him to come back and help her, he had to come back and even when he was so angry and frustrated with her for sleeping with Aayan and crossing that line, he still stuck by her. What I love is that in another person, that would come across as being weak or spineless, but Rupert Friend manages to convey it in a way that Quinn's still his own person, he isn't weak - he's just able to judge but still accept and support and try to guide Carrie back to the right path... maybe it's because he's been on the wrong path. Rupert Friend said in an interview that it seemed weird to have a black ops guy like Quinn being a moral compass but that perhaps it was the fact that he had done such bad things that it allowed him to see things clearly and pass moral judgment.
On the other hand, sometimes, I wish Quinn would share more with Carrie (maybe he did, just not detailed in the show), because other than he sometimes couldn't find justifications to do his job, to kill people, and he wants to quit, and he messed up his opportunity of being a good parent, I don't know what he meant when after the kiss, he said to Carrie, "You know mine." (in reply to Carrie saying, you know my shit). I mean for the three years they have been working together, it seems that he knows every little thing about Carrie, but Carrie (or maybe just we, I sure hope they two talk some time off the screen) knew little about his world - other than he's great at his job and his gaze on Carrie.
I agree. Much as I loved season 3, I hated how one-way it was, how oblivious Carrie was - not necessarily to the 'love' in Quinn's eyes but to his pain. He was in emotional agony for much of season 3 because of his killing of the child Carlos Cedeño in "Tinman is Down" but Carrie only ever saw her own (and Brody's) pain and problems. To be honest, I think she remains oblivious and only starts seeing his pain towards the latter part of season 4!!! It really takes her that long. In the episode where he goes to clone Ghazi's phone, she's definitely worried about him.... that was yet another instance of her using him though. Good old Quinn, always gets the job done etc ... That's why I wrote Destruction, ie Carrie like everyone else finds him useful, really good at his job ... but doesn't realise that he's burning out badly... I think for all of season 2 and 3, Carrie was just so single-minded and obsessed. Her whole world revolved around Brody and she saw the world through her Brody-lens. It wasn't deliberate, she just had no room in her universe for anything else.
That being said, I have had a few stabs at their off-screen conversations and having her 'care' about stuff other than Brody, but I had to be a bit cautious not to go too out of charater. There's:
- Confessions: Missing scene set at the end of 3.07 Gerontion when Quinn is emerging from the house of Fariba Javadi after making his 'confession'. It has bothered me that Carrie basically ignores his 'heartfelt' moment when he confides that he has become disillusioned with the CIA. I know it's Carrie and she's self-absorbed and selfish but it still bothered me.
- Catharsis (one of the chapters in Fragments): This is the chapter written after I saw how empty Quinn's home was when Dar Adal interrupted his shower. Everyone else was admiring his naked torso but I was worried about how lonely he looked and how empty and solitary his existence seemed to be.
I don't know where I'm going, maybe just worry has Carrie seen Quinn at his worst yet?
I think she has. Just a few things off the top of my head:
- she has seen him brutal - stabbing Brody through the hand
- she has seen him lose his temper - when he completely loses his shit at Brody in the episode where Brody finally tells them that the tailor is dead. There's also the episode where he visits her in the hospital. When the orderly asks if everything's ok, he turns around and yells at him: "We're fine here!" before turning around and composing himself for Carrie i.e. she can see that he can lose it and then be calm - which is kind of unsettling to be honest
- she has seen him kill in person - shooting the people in the crowd in Islamabad when he saves her from being beaten to death like Sandy
- she knows he killed a child
- she's obviously learned along the way that he was in black ops and that he was in targeted assassinations
- she got him out of lock-up when he was picked up for beating up those two guys in the diner who hassled Eden
- when he beat up the two guys that were going to take him in, shot one in the leg and grabbed Carrie by the throat in "Krieg Nicht Lieb" - that was pretty brutal
- when he totally lost the plot at the end of 13 Hours in Islamabad and during Krieg Nicht Lieb - he was rational but enraged
do you have an interpretation of what Carrie meant when she said "I'm not sure I like to be watched by you, Quinn." in 3.05 before she's taken by Javadi's guys? I rewatched that conversation a couple of times today and wanted to figure out what that comment was supposed to convey...
I'm not sure to be honest! I think in that episode, she's still got a little bit of antipathy towards him. She trusts him completely. Have you read Phone Surveillance? My take on it is that she trusts him but doesn't necessarily like him at that point, so it makes her uneasy to think that he's running surveillance on her. I think his comment about being at at a safe distance is also quite interesting. Is he joking with her or does he think that he's a danger to her? Is he trying to reassure her? That scene did my head in to be honest - it was so intimate, her on the phone in the dark in her sleep where, him down the road watching over her - the camera so close on his eyes and mouth ... it felt so close and intimate and I couldn't tell if it was shot like that simply to be stylish and cool-looking or if they were trying to make it romantic. It certainly felt romantic to me and my shipper heart was going wild for it, but I knew that Carrie was still 100% all about Brody ....
Anyway, thanks for the comment! :) You need to set up an LJ account, methinks!!