(Untitled)

[kiskameow]

Somewhere in the 14th century, there were these people called Arabs. And then there was a guy named Copernicus. They were all doing essentially same thing - looking at stars, planets, and figuring out how everything in the world revolves around the Earth. They both came to the same conclusion - something doesn't figure right in this, the planets

Comments

"Alright, Lucy. You promise you're not gonna pull the football away this time?"

[figgy_pup]

I'd think it's hard to say he's completely against it when he's the first president to put federal funds into it. And while he has put limitations on it, I think (though I wouldn't bet my life, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong) the limitations aren't in the forms of laws against it, but only in the amount of federal funding and the amount of federally controlled frozen embryo lines that the government is putting into it (i.e. private companies can go to town with research, but they’re only going to get so much free supplies and materials from the federal government). Seemed like a reasonable compromise to me, the government using what it has already gathered, but not gathering any more until the ethics of the situation are further explored and debated.

Not to mention, most things I've read that had any detail in them or referenced any scientific research suggest that embryonic stem cell research isn't nearly as likely to produce cures for diseases as the other types of stem cell research. You can harvest stem cells quite effectively from living human beings too (without any harm to them), and it seems early research with those have been far more successful. I think if it wasn't an election year, no one would much be caring about embryonic stem cell research. Yes, stem cell research, just not so much the embryonic kind.

Since no one (scientists included) have any idea if any real cures will come out of stem cell research (despite all the hype, it’s just speculation at this point, and people would not be getting up out of their wheel chairs ANY time soon, and to suggest otherwise is just heartless and mean, as many famous handicapped people have come out and said recently), and since non-embryonic types of stem cell research have more potential, I think the whole “Embryonic Stem Cell” political football is a fake issue. Maybe people are getting so passionate about it because they get caught up in the political hype, or maybe it’s another way to debate the abortion issue. “It’s a human being so killing it is wrong,” or “It isn’t a human being, so if any good can come from killing it, it should be legal to kill it,” depending on which side if any you stand on. I’m sure everyone knows the drill.

Sadly, despite what I’ve been told by some political candidates, there is no evidence to suggest that stem cell research will be applicable to Alzheimer's Disease, which my grandmother is currently struggling with :( *sigh*. Again, more of a political football than anything else.

Re: "Alright, Lucy. You promise you're not gonna pull the football away this time?"

[kiskameow]

First of all, who the hell is Lucy.

Gee, I wonder what website you were quoting *cough*bushlover*cough*. It's because of people like you that so many things are halted. Ohh, I'm sorry, we're not sure if this is going to succeed or not. Ya know, that IS why they call it RESEARCH. Because you're trying to find out what exactly it does.

Yes, stem cells can be derived from other sources. But I can quote you Mr. Bush's speech on that. This is taken straight out of your beloved Bush's speech, EXACTLY after the quote you used, "However, most scientists, at least today, believe that research on embryonic stem cells offer the most promise because these cells have the potential to develop in all of the tissues in the body. " Do you see this. Most scientists BELIEVE that the results will be fruitful, not that they have no clue.

And before you go on praising him for what he did, research EXACTLY what he did. And here it is, are you ready? Bush signed an executive order in August 2001 LIMITING federal research funding for stem cell research to 78 embryonic stem cell lines then in existence. He didn't allow anything new, on the contrary he FORBID it.

Oh yeah, before I forget - it's not a human being until it can survive on its own outside the mother. Until then it is sole property of the mother, and if she deems it proper of the father.

Re: "Alright, Lucy. You promise you're not gonna pull the football away this time?"

[figgy_pup]

Lucy is a character from Charlie Brown. She would hold a football for Charlie Brown and he would run up to it and try to kick it with all his might. However, Lucy would always pull the ball away at the last second, leaving Charlie Brown to trip, kick himself into the air, or perform some other such bout of clumsiness. It was just an attempt to be funny, being that my comment theme was about the stem cell issue being a political football.

Anyway, I've never read through Bush's or Kerry's sites much. I figure that if you want a completely biased, distorted, and one-sided view of what's been going on, that's the best place to get it, so I don't bother. As far as political research goes, I’d much rather get my info from a third party, reputable news source, or analyze the candidates’ own actions or words, rather than what some campaign staffers decided to write for them and stick on their website.

Bush isn't against the research, as the bottom line is this: Before Bush, there was no government funding or supplying of human stem cell lines. Now, Bush opened the door for funding and for the government supplying stem cell line. He hasn't put any kind of a cap or specific limit on federal funding of the research, but has put a cap on the number of embryonic stem cell lines that will be supplied to researchers by the government. It's fair to call that a compromise, and the private sector can still do as much of whatever they wish. And according to NIH, once you have a good stem cell line, private researchers can continue to grow and expand it and make additional (completely separate) lines from it for other researchers to use, indefinitely. That’s another reason why the need to keep getting new lines from new embryos is kinda a fake issue.

Again, I wasn't quoting any political web sites, and that was my whole point: the whole debate is being waged on empty promises of miracle cures, speculation, and political spin (because it's an election year), rather than on actual scientific facts and research. I've read a number of articles (ones that actually cite scientific research rather than politicians) that discuss how adult stem cells often out perform embryonic stem cells in actual applications, and that stem cells harvested from living humans are far more versatile than originally thought. For example:

http://www.betterhumans.com/Errors/index.aspx?aspxerrorpath=/Adult_Marrow_Stem_Cells_Heal_Burns_Faster_than_Embryonic.Article.2003-10-10-4.aspx

http://www.betterhumans.com/News/news.aspx?articleID=2004-09-30-2

http://www.betterhumans.com/News/news.aspx?articleID=2004-06-01-3

Anyway, just trying to give a different viewpoint.

Re: "Alright, Lucy. You promise you're not gonna pull the football away this time?"

[figgy_pup]

I would like to withdraw my "Since no one (scientists included) have any idea if any real cures will come out of stem cell research" statment from the first comment though. What's in the quotes is probably an overstatement. It would be more accurate to say that the hype about all the diseases people claim will be cured is just that, hype at this point, and speculation. Some of it is speculation based on research and data, and some of it is not.

Re: "Alright, Lucy. You promise you're not gonna pull the football away this time?"

[kiskameow]

Oh yeah, here's another bit of info for you on how Bush promotes stem cells research. Fifty eight senators asked him in a letter just before Reagan died to stop limiting research. They showed that it's not 78 lines that are now usable, but only 19. And of those 19, most are contaminated, so their use is uncertain. They pleaded with him to allow research. Bush did not comment on the issue, but his spokeswoman did. With this, "The president remains committed to exploring the promise of stem cell research but at the same time continues to believe strongly that we should not cross a fundamental moral line by funding or encouraging the destruction of human embryos"